to think Rachel 'Raygun' gun has broken the phrase 'Oh for the confidence of a mediocre man'?

[Raygunstun]

( Ok, yes I know I am late to the party on this one).

I'm talking about the Australian women's entry into the breakdancing at the Olympics.

She went out there with absolute confidence, and complete lack of self awareness, and did really terrible breakdancing. It wasn't even really breakdancing. It was like some sort of interpretative dance. Her moves were clunky and slow. they did not flow, the connections between moves were awkward. She was like a competitor in a very, very local competition. And she appeared to have no awareness of this. I know there is a lot of creativity and expression in breaking, but it surely has to be combined with technical skill.

She also appears to have no awareness that the Olympics is about showcasing outstanding physical prowess and technical expertise. Both of which she clearly lacked.

In a way, I admire her confidence, but I don't admire her lack of awareness. I also do not believe she was the best female breaker in Australia.

Part of me feels a bit sorry for her as the break dancing world is clearly her world, but I can't help feeling she got so lost in the theory of the ' expressive' side of breaking she kinda lost sight of the technical skill side. A bit like Rachel Dolezol got so lost in the theory of race being a social construct that she lost sight of the fact you actually need to be black to be black.

Yes in general - but the Olympics themselves introduced the wild card system to give people who would not otherwise qualify the chance to compete in the Olympics. I don't know how they choose, but I think it is a really good thing to do. So while medals are won by elite athletes at the top of their game (literally), they clearly see a reason to allow other people to be there. And I believe that is more in keeping with the spirit of the competition that the focus on medals and achievement that we currently have. I know it is old fashioned to believe that the taking part is what is important, but I do think it is important (and probably better for MH).

There was a lovely woman in the last Olympics (weight lifting I think) who did not do very well and they went after to interview her about her performance and whether she was disappointed. And she was beaming and said she was in the Olympics and that was a special achievement in itself. I was so impressed with her.

Hmm. That brings us back to her being delusional. She may have just lived in a little bubble where people kept telling her she was good, when really she isn't, and certainly not at an elite level. She may have actually believed she was just being original and creative - she certainly seems, from pre-Olympic interviews, to have genuinely believed she had a real strength in this and musicality.

And now, maybe for the first time, she has had to face up to people saying, ' you really aren't that good.'

That must be hard, especially as breaking seems to be her world.

I still find it hard to understand how anyone can have that level of lack of self awareness though.

Because she did it on purpose. That's the difference, she knew what she was doing & that she wasn't good enough. This was a showcase for breakdancing & she turned up & basically took a massive dump on it.

How is it an achievement when you have been actively selected on a ticket for people who are not good enough to be in the Olympics?

The Olympics actively aim for some kind of diversity with regional places and universality places. In tennis, it was a woman from Montenegro and man from Lebanon, who didn't get in originally on their own ranking, but are the best players from countries with very small olympic participation. And, another players got in on continent-specific quotas, Brazilian and Argentinian.

I feel certain there are white Australian women (and indeed other ethnicities) a lot better than Raygun who weren't selected. This is not about a diversity quota, but failures of the Aus selection process

Is it always delusional to do something different? One thing I was really struck by in the gymnastics, which I always enjoy, is how same-y the routines were - between the gymnasts themselves and on each piece of equipment. I guess it is a risk assessment - is it worth doing something different to see if it shifts the norm? Gymnastics has changed massively in what it values since I was watching it as a kid. So, while this did not seem good to most people - and perhaps was misjudgement - I dont think that is always delusional.

Sports are competitions with clear criteria and codes of points. People seem to forget this.

It should be investigated, there's an uproar here in Australia about it. There's a change.otg petition. Only through nepotism/corruption she could ever get selected. Although, there hasn't been any official government statement about it.

Google her other performances and she has never been good.

Also, husband's being the judge and coach in the same competitions should be a conflict of interest.

Probably won't stay. Not many countries play lacrosse.

And it will be another controversy, as the US is trying to sneak two US teams into 8 teams only competition, American and Native American.

I didnt forget. But if you look at gymnastics 20 year ago and today, there are massive differences between what is emphasized, valued and allowed. Even Simone Biles has said she is not a flexible as gymnasts from the past - but she obviously has other strengths which are incredible and which we value highly now.

Criteria, points etc dont just change. There is a reason they alter over time.

Nice that the breakdancing community are supportive. I read this, “Breaking is all about originality and bringing something new to the table and representing your country or region,” head judge Martin Gilian — known as MGbility — said at a press conference. “This is exactly what Raygun was doing. She got inspired by her surroundings, which in this case, for example, was a kangaroo.”**

But you can be original and still be good. When I was just watching clips, I liked the kangaroo thing and all that - I thought it was funny and quirky. I assumed she was a good dancer, adding in quirky moves to a skilled performance. But when I saw the whole of her performance I realised she is just a very mediocre amateur dancer. You can have original moves and still perform them with skill and flow and grace, but she did not do that. She was clunky and clumsy and slow and awkward. Most of her moves lacked technical expertise or skill or challenge. Being original does not preclude excellent execution, technical expertise or technically challenging moves. And that is where Raygun's defence of ' originality' , when performing at an elite level, falls down.

It rather looks like she has created this defence of ' originality' to enable her to justify her participation in something that she lacks real talent or skill for.

Akin to white people claiming that their uncle's cat had visited Jamaica.

A total uncultured approach: I'm going to break dance, which was developed by black working class people by getting a degree in it.

Yes @Olivie12 - conflict of interest, that’s it exactly.

In my experience this happens quite frequently in dance scenes. There is always a few dancers who have been around for years who say and do the right things, know all the moves, but are actually not that good. They manage to get lots of kudos for their 'unique' style though, often teaching and trading off their reputation to make a living.

This is why I switched to sports, that's pretty clear cut. You can't bring your ego and narcissism along for the ride which you can do in creative pursuits.

Olympics is a whole other level though. The breakdance scene in Oz must be pretty toxic.

Gymnastics has a clear and well used process for submitting new moves to the code of points. They also reevaluate the COP every cycle, to guard against certain moves being over used. Olympics are the biggest deal for these competitors, there will be a certain amount of playing it safe to maximise their chances, but if you look at the medal winning performances, originality is clearly rewarded. Look at Biles on floor/vault or Nemour on UB.

But you can be original and still be good.

This sums it up

You can do something different but still do it well.

She did something different but still executed it badly. She could have done an original dance that still had technical challenge, expertise and excellent execution.

Sorry, I am just not buying the ' but she was original'. argument. She was original and crap, not original and skilled.

At the risk of getting a bit serious about Eddie the Eagle and Eric the Eel 😂, I don't think these comparisons really hold water. Eddie the Eagle was no good at ski jumping but he was superb speed skier- one of the best in the world- trying to do something new. He didn't make ski jumping look ridiculous- if anything, he showed quite how dangerous and difficult it is.

Eric the Eel took part as part of a programme designed to widen participation by inviting nations which would not otherwise qualify- he had no delusions about his abilities. He had never swum in an Olympic size pool and didn't even have swimming trunk or goggles until the coach of another team gave him some. He was there to represent his country where there was nobody else to do it in the hope of bringing swimming to EG, and he succeeded in that 100% (and is now the national coach) as well as demonstrating how skewed the games necessarily are in favour of richer nations. He's a real hero.

None of that applies to Raygun, who comes from a rich nation with plenty of resources (and many better potential competitors) and made the whole activity appear ridiculous.

Well he was the head judge and he doesn't seem to want her head on a stick. She's certainly generated lots of publicity for breakdancing.

By the same argument black people can’t participate in half of ballroom dancing dances. Or in tennis. Or even football. Which were developed by white upper class people. Are you for real? That’s such a racist argument

I keep getting reels showing on Facebook which cut from dogs writhing around on the ground to raygun and back again.

I usually err on the side of thinking people generally are sincere and act in good faith. Including Rachel Gunn. I've cringed so hard, cried with laughter and been so puzzled by this that I've stalked her old twitter and she seems genuinely committed to her work in promoting dance, culture and entertainment.

I can see how the Aussie selection process may have been a bit slapdash and excluded some breakers if there were no formal structures in place for organising and overseeing the qualifiers leading to a prohibitively narrow timeframe for registering interest and Olympic eligibility requirements included the need for proof of both citizenship and passport. Lots of people don't have those things to hand.

To me, she just looks like someone who is a bit out of shape but having a go, trying to get into 'the spirit' of the battle, leaning into the 'interpretive' and 'creative' aspects of the genre. But judging by her twitter, she's been doing it for years as PPs have pointed out so she clearly knows what's required. I feel for her. It's probably how I would look if I participated in a breaking battle... at a family barbecue or in a PE lesson against one of my pupils.

Didn't realise upper class white people were historically oppressed and had their culture appropriated by their oppressors.

He's being nice. He still gave her zero points as she was not at an Olympic level (putting it kindly).

If you read the article from the Guardian, girl break dancers in Australia are devastated about what they see as the humiliation of this performance, have received hate and trolling as a result and are very worried about this having set them back massively, in terms of girls and women in breakdancing not being taken seriously, in what is already a very male dominated sport.

I don't think skin colour or class should be a limit. But there is an issue about what makes something/someone "good". The background of how breakdance developed is relevant - not that white people can't do it, but "getting a degree" in it is a different way to how the sport developed. I guess it gets into an argument about who "owns" the dance/sport.