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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To think this is fucking crazy

436 replies

itstheendoftheworldasweknowitnow · 13/08/2024 15:46

We’re en route to a holiday rental in France. I wasn’t sure if the pool was shared or not between other guests so emailed the owner to ask. This is his reply - which I put in to google translate
Could you tell me if sharing the swimming pool with us who occupy the ground floor bothers you and for what reason? Recently we refused the rental because the wife and the two young daughters were veiled; are you english or muslim? We do not want you to make the trip and see yourself refused access to our property for reasons of displaying religious beliefs which are very resented by the neighborhood.

Fuck Fuck Fuck
What the hell do I do?
I am not a Muslim.
I am also not a racist.

OP posts:
Tulipsareredvioletsarebue · 13/08/2024 16:50

OnePeachCrow · 13/08/2024 16:40

All conspicuous religious symbols are banned in France. It's not just the burkha Catholic nuns can't wear their habits in public either.

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Nuns absolutely can go out in public in their habits.

Totallymessed · 13/08/2024 16:51

Tulipsareredvioletsarebue · 13/08/2024 16:46

I presume like a few other people has said that he has a very unpleasant time with some of the previous guests.

We once shared a pool with a few families, one of them were Turkish- the dad refused to be in the pool and would not allowed his teenage sons be in the water if any women were in the pool. The thing was, they would leave the pool instead of expecting everyone else not to use it though, so we ended up having a schedule when their family was using it for themselves.
Maybe his guests were a pain in the ass and the owner had to ask them to leave, and now all Muslim guests are tarred with the same brush.

Why? It was them who wouldn't share a pool with women, you should have let them get on with it and enjoyed the pool whenever you felt like it. And enjoyed the uncrowded experience.

GiddyNavyJoker · 13/08/2024 16:53

beAsensible1 · 13/08/2024 16:49

Exactly. There were women in hijab refereeing different sport during the Olympics in public with no issue.

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That's because the hijab doesn't cover you face 🙄

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_ban_on_face_covering#:~:text=This%20ban%20does%20not%20apply,face%20veils%20in%20public%20areas.

French ban on face covering - Wikipedia

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_ban_on_face_covering#:~:text=This%20ban%20does%20not%20apply,face%20veils%20in%20public%20areas.

CurlyhairedAssassin · 13/08/2024 16:54

Lacdulancelot · 13/08/2024 16:34

Which bit of France are you visiting?
Where I live, Dordogne, most gîte owners only use the pool when their guests are out.
A friends electrician has withdrawn his mixed race dc from the local school and is homeschooling due to racism by both the teachers and pupils.

Im assuming your gîte owner is French, it would be unusual to get such a response from a British owner ime.

I love the Dordogne but whenever I've been, it's really not very diverse. I think the rural population of anywhere in the world can be a bit wary of "otherness". I've been to small rural villages in the UK. The local population can be mistrustful of who they consider to be outsiders/someone who is very different to themselves. Racist, in other words. DH said he was packing up the car to go home once in a village in Cornwall. A local strolling past stopped to chat and seemed a nice fella, talking about the area. Then he just casually made a racist comment, something like "as long as those darkies stay away". DH was so shocked he didn't say anything, then kicked himself a few minutes later when the man had gone.

Living in a city, I just don't understand the attitudes. Maybe it's a fear of others wanting to do things differently to the "accepted", traditional way that they're familiar with.

Boltonb · 13/08/2024 16:54

I think perspective wouldn’t go amiss here.

You’ve booked a holiday where face coverings are banned. The B&B owner doesn’t want the fine/hassle of having guests who are potentially breaking the law.

You’ve raised a concern about shared public spaces, he’s checking that it’s not for religious reasons, and there isn’t going to be a potential problem.

Stick to your plan, go on holiday and enjoy yourself. Don’t be arsey with him, even if you disagree with his views/his country’s laws, as you’ll be sharing a pool, so it’ll be easier to be cordial.

Mirabai · 13/08/2024 16:54

There is a lot of tension in France around religious dress and symbolism which is banned in public life as part of the policy of 'laïcité' (secularism) which is tied into the 'egalité' (equality) element of the French constitution. It's very strongly felt in France and I think unless you understand the culture around it, it's difficult to accept that people think it's ok to hold and express views like the Airbnb owner's

Sorry but this is cobblers. The tension is around race - cultural dress is simply a stick to beat the ethnic population with.

If France really cared about égalité it could publish the number of ethnic citizens who die in police custody.

hepsitemiz · 13/08/2024 16:55

To be clear, he is saying it is the displaying of religious convictions that makes others uncomfortable.

It doesn't make it right, but what he meant is not as strong as the google translate suggests with the word "resented".

Tulipsareredvioletsarebue · 13/08/2024 16:57

Totallymessed · 13/08/2024 16:51

Why? It was them who wouldn't share a pool with women, you should have let them get on with it and enjoyed the pool whenever you felt like it. And enjoyed the uncrowded experience.

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They were civil and we were also civil. The guy didnt make a big deal out of it- he explained the men were forbidden to share a pool with women, we said OK, as we were confused the first day.
If it was inconvenient, then no one would be bending backwards, and they were the ones not using the pool and not pushing on us not to use it.The dad knew they were limiting themselves and admitted that they calculate this as a risk. We were often out on trips anyways and they were fine using it when we were out and then not using it one most people were around, so it was not a big effort. At the end of the day everyone had a good holiday.

EI12 · 13/08/2024 16:59

This is one of very few examples when virtue-signalling comes at a price, if you want to cancel. (Usually virtue-signalling is cost-free or even beneficial).

BargingOnBy · 13/08/2024 17:00

EI12 · 13/08/2024 16:59

This is one of very few examples when virtue-signalling comes at a price, if you want to cancel. (Usually virtue-signalling is cost-free or even beneficial).

Exactly! What price do you put on your principles OP?

EnidSpyton · 13/08/2024 17:01

Mirabai · 13/08/2024 16:54

There is a lot of tension in France around religious dress and symbolism which is banned in public life as part of the policy of 'laïcité' (secularism) which is tied into the 'egalité' (equality) element of the French constitution. It's very strongly felt in France and I think unless you understand the culture around it, it's difficult to accept that people think it's ok to hold and express views like the Airbnb owner's

Sorry but this is cobblers. The tension is around race - cultural dress is simply a stick to beat the ethnic population with.

If France really cared about égalité it could publish the number of ethnic citizens who die in police custody.

Yes, this is exactly what I meant. I thought that was clear. Evidently not.

Totallymessed · 13/08/2024 17:02

Tulipsareredvioletsarebue · 13/08/2024 16:57

They were civil and we were also civil. The guy didnt make a big deal out of it- he explained the men were forbidden to share a pool with women, we said OK, as we were confused the first day.
If it was inconvenient, then no one would be bending backwards, and they were the ones not using the pool and not pushing on us not to use it.The dad knew they were limiting themselves and admitted that they calculate this as a risk. We were often out on trips anyways and they were fine using it when we were out and then not using it one most people were around, so it was not a big effort. At the end of the day everyone had a good holiday.

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They weren't just limiting themselves though, were they? So it wasn't just their risk to take, if they were really concerned about the experience of their fellow guests, they should have checked in advance to make sure they wouldn't be affecting other people. I guess it's up to you if you're happy being walked over by entitled men though.

Original poster
itstheendoftheworldasweknowitnow · 13/08/2024 17:04

EnidSpyton · 13/08/2024 16:38

I'm guessing you're going somewhere quite rural.

I'm a French speaker and yes his message is saying that he won't have women wearing veils in his property and anyone veiled won't be welcome as people in the neighbourhood don't like it.

There is a lot of tension in France around religious dress and symbolism which is banned in public life as part of the policy of 'laïcité' (secularism) which is tied into the 'egalité' (equality) element of the French constitution. It's very strongly felt in France and I think unless you understand the culture around it, it's difficult to accept that people think it's ok to hold and express views like the Airbnb owner's. Unfortunately the banning of religious dress has fuelled racist views and allowed them to become acceptable.

Frankly I would just get on with it. Yes he's racist, but you're en route now and it's going to be very difficult to reorganise your holiday with such little notice.

However, when you get back, I would report him to Airbnb and send them the messages. Airbnb owners are not allowed to refuse people to stay in their property for reasons of 'race, color, ethnicity, national origin, religion, sexual orientation, gender identity, or marital status' as per their nondiscrimination policy, so he will get himself banned from the site as a consequence. I would also leave a review saying the same thing.

Thank you - this is very helpful

OP posts:
pompey38 · 13/08/2024 17:04

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

cansu · 13/08/2024 17:04

It does sound racist. However you are enroute and have paid for your holiday. Just reply that you are happy to share the pool. Don't mention the bollocks about being Muslim etc.

TwoLeftSocksWithHoles · 13/08/2024 17:04

YesIReallyDoLikeRootBeer · 13/08/2024 16:47

Well, being naked would not avoid open religious symbolism if any of the males are circumcised

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That's a good point, (!)

FastFood · 13/08/2024 17:05

And so are women in hijab.
Its the face coverings that are banned in public.

Totallymessed · 13/08/2024 17:05

Boltonb · 13/08/2024 16:54

I think perspective wouldn’t go amiss here.

You’ve booked a holiday where face coverings are banned. The B&B owner doesn’t want the fine/hassle of having guests who are potentially breaking the law.

You’ve raised a concern about shared public spaces, he’s checking that it’s not for religious reasons, and there isn’t going to be a potential problem.

Stick to your plan, go on holiday and enjoy yourself. Don’t be arsey with him, even if you disagree with his views/his country’s laws, as you’ll be sharing a pool, so it’ll be easier to be cordial.

I think the experience of posters on this thread who have been told they can't use the pool at the same time as Muslim men might explain the man's comment more than racism tbh.

MumToBe1980 · 13/08/2024 17:06

If you feel strongly enough about this, turn around and do not go on the holiday

WimpoleHat · 13/08/2024 17:07

IHaveNeverLivedintheCastle · 13/08/2024 16:23

It's got nothing to do with racism and everything to do with French secularism.

Whether or not you agree with banning "symbols or clothing that conspicuously demonstrate a person's religious affiliation” is a different debate.

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This. The French are aggressively secularist - that’s their belief system, if you like. It’s very different from the UK. And it applies to all religion - no nativity plays in schools, for example.

1415isgreat · 13/08/2024 17:07

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

OK so if they are reading the news of the horrific riots around the UK and then decide that all British people fit this stereotype and therefore declare them unwelcome, it is absolutely fine to do so? Go to bed.

beanii · 13/08/2024 17:08

I don't see the problem unless you're Muslim?

You haven't actually said 🤷🏻‍♀️

If you're not then can't see a problem.

The owner has the right to allow or decline guests as he pleases.

Original poster
itstheendoftheworldasweknowitnow · 13/08/2024 17:08

I know, I know….
Principles or money - but also it’s rural Provence and who am I to bring my London values etc etc
BUT I hate racism.
BUT I want my holiday.

it’s not a great position to be in.

OP posts:
notanotheronenow · 13/08/2024 17:10

Totallymessed · 13/08/2024 17:05

I think the experience of posters on this thread who have been told they can't use the pool at the same time as Muslim men might explain the man's comment more than racism tbh.

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no it's just a typical french attitude (i'm french)

EnidSpyton · 13/08/2024 17:10

beanii · 13/08/2024 17:08

I don't see the problem unless you're Muslim?

You haven't actually said 🤷🏻‍♀️

If you're not then can't see a problem.

The owner has the right to allow or decline guests as he pleases.

No he doesn't actually have the right to allow or decline guests as he pleases, as per the Airbnb rules.

If you let your property through Airbnb you cannot refuse to allow someone to stay because of race, color, ethnicity, national origin, religion, sexual orientation, gender identity, or marital status.

And I can understand full well why the OP might not feel comfortable staying in a property where the man who owns it and lives downstairs is a rampant racist who won't allow Muslims to stay in his house.

Jesus wept.