UK universities in trouble - why not add VAT to tuition?

[80smonster]

UK universities are in trouble, apparently many could close, why not charge VAT on tuition fees (for those that are financially viable)? Bridget Phillipson says they are autonomous institutions and won’t be given a public bail out - they should rely on their own resources:
https://www.theguardian.com/education/article/2024/aug/09/english-universities-face-autumn-tipping-point-as-financial-crisis-looms

YABU - don’t add the VAT
YANBU - add the VAT

The ex poly by me was around long before the 50s. Obviously it wasn't called a poky then but it was still there. I just looked up a couple more and they were colleges in the 1800s. As I said, they may not have been called universities but it doesn't mean they weren't there.

@wombat15 Some were technical colleges before they became polys, yes. However their establishment as a uniform country wide set of polytechnics was in 1969. The Robbins report had looked at HE and wanted one system of HE. He didn’t get it and the polys weren’t universities. However they could award degrees and supported employers. That was their strength.

As I said they generally existed before they became Polys or universities. Same for colleges of higher education. Regardless, do you actually think it would benefit the country to go back to the 50s or 60s with regard to education and do you think that would happen anyway? I think it is rather naive to think that if universities shut, employers would train people instead. More likely they would look overseas for suitably qualified people. The fact that there are few apprenticeships at the moment suggests not many would pay for day release to a university either. Also, the apprenticeships that exist are often using the universities that are considered "lower tier" by MN and are perhaps the most likely to shut. If universities close courses it will generally be the least profitable ones and that is not the same thing as the least useful to the country.

However they could award degrees and supported employers. That was their strength.

They still do this .....

I don’t think many on this thread work in university management. It’s full of complete nonsense.

reality is we need increased tuition fees and unfortunately some consolidation in the market.

The problem is that fees are too low. We need fee deregulation so that universities can charge commercially appropriate prices for their courses.

The government didn’t want to fund them, but now wants them to charge unreasonably low prices. Can’t have it both ways.

University is free in most European countries, so England and Wales are hardly appealing as an option because of fees, without VAT on top.

My daughter went to an average state school and did 12 GCSEs. I have also worked in both sectors and in my experience, independent schools offer fewer GCSEs - and pay teachers less.

The VAT would go to the government though so I don’t see your logic here.

Nobody needs 12 GCSEs. Literally no university needs this. Just like with four A Levels (with the possible exception of further maths). Better to have 8/9 at top grades and to have spent the rest of the time on sport/arts/debating/public speaking etc

Student nurses do long placements on wards and in the community now. I don’t know where people get the idea that they spend most of their time at university and do the occasional shift on the wards.

Agreed. And often they are non-academic subjects just taken to increase the overall number. And sometimes students get average grades when they could get better ones if they did fewer subjects. I agree it’s quality/depth not quantity. I reckon bright kids can do 9-10 max but any more is a bit silly.

Great idea! Not.Fewer students so less income for unis and even better for richer families.

Teachers
Occupational therapists
Speech and language therapists
Nurses
Midwives
Psychological wellbeing practitioners
Unless you would prefer all the above to have NVQs?

Engineers, research scientists, pharmacists,dieticians, vets, veterinary nurses…..

the list is endless.

NVQs don't exist any more and there ARE Apprenticeships for some of these.
On a personal level I don't agree with taxation of any education, my point is that Labour claim private schools are businesses, well then so are universities. If you take that argument forwards then university fees should be subject to VAT.

I think it’s been explained over and again why VAT on unis is a ridiculous idea.

Apprenticeships are extremely hard to get and there aren’t many.

There aren't hardly any apprenticeships for any of them now including nursing. Most employers found them too costly. Plus, they still require universities and if they shut, then do will the apprenticeships.

An ITP could get accreditation for doing them if they had suitably qualified staff. The Apprenticeships do exist and Labour will be pushing them to help the recruitment crisis in NHS and teaching

Ha ha ha.
Some of the 'ex- polytechnics' or ex-colleges offer really practical and useful degree courses!

As long as you don’t mind your nurse, midwife, psychological wellbeing practitioner, child’s teacher having a diploma instead of a degree and your child or grandchildren being treated by a lesser-qualified speech and language therapist or CAMHS worker and as long as you don’t mind driving over bridges designed by lesser-qualified engineers, I’m sure it will all work out for the best.

They may push them but they will need to sort out a horrendous situation. The apprenticeship situation is dire. It’s harder to get an apprenticeship than get into a uni a lot of the time and they cost.

Who ever thought HS2 was £29 billion - not sure what planet you are on. It was well over £100 billion. And, guess what, some of it’s being built! London to Birmingham and that’s estimated at up to £65 billion now and they cannot afford to get it to Euston. It was Labour’s big idea! Bigger fools them

You need to read what was written, before hitting that keyboard - the cancelled section of HS2 meant a loss of £29 billion, thats what was spent on it..... money down the drain.

Labour haven't been in power for 14 years, first spades went in the ground under the Tories, so whilst i agree it was stupid idea (all of it) it was the Cons who signed it off and spent billions on this white elephant.

I’m not sure my daughter would have got a place at Oxbridge and a subsequent First without 12 GCSEs at A ⭐️ and A grades and 4 ‘A’ levels at A ⭐️ and A grades, but the point I was making is that it isn’t only independent schools offering more than 8/9 GCSEs. Nor should it be.

Agreed and they are massively under funded for the ITP too