UK universities in trouble - why not add VAT to tuition?

[80smonster]

UK universities are in trouble, apparently many could close, why not charge VAT on tuition fees (for those that are financially viable)? Bridget Phillipson says they are autonomous institutions and won’t be given a public bail out - they should rely on their own resources:
https://www.theguardian.com/education/article/2024/aug/09/english-universities-face-autumn-tipping-point-as-financial-crisis-looms

YABU - don’t add the VAT
YANBU - add the VAT

Nurses didn't just train on the job in the past. They studied at college too. More studying is required now because they have to do a lot more once qualified. The job has changed.

If you charge VAT, then you can reclaim VAT on goods and services you buy in - that's potentially a lot of cash to claw back.

The UK has one of the highest levels of university qualified workforces in the world. Increasingly well qualified but at the same time work force productivity has declined.

When was this? Because afaik worker productivity has been growing for decades, not declining.

Perhaps you are referring to the slow down in productivity growth (growing less fast) due to the 2008 crisis which we (and the rest of the world) have not yet recovered from?

I am also not sure that worker productivity is the right measure to determine whether University education is a failure or not.

I'm not just talking about private school, it is 1 example however now you've raised it: if you live in an area with poor state schools (yes these areas do exist) and you want something more for your child then you are called posh/elite etc for choosing to pay for your child's education and on here accusations of being "a posh Tory twat" amongst other things.

No it's not considering 70-75% of a school's expenditure is on staffing which you can't claim back on.

".Less snobbery towards any uni that isn’t a MN desirable uni is going to become necessary".

I don't think snobbery comes in to it from where I am coming from. In my book universities should be about scholarship (generating knowledge, intellectual exploration and academic excellence). I think there is a need for this, but it's quite niche and not what many (most?) seek to go to university for. If this is what they are about, we really don't need all that many.

I think most go to a university to gain knowledge and skills to assist them in their careers, not for scholarly pursuits. I don't think unis provide the best infrastructure for this. I think we need something that is better fit for purpose. For me, something far better can be offered outside of universities.

It's frustrating that this is being pitched as snobbery. I see it as the opposite. I think snobbery leads people to think university is best, when it really isn't for what many are seeking. Having said that, as I said before, I think it is the absence of anything else that really drives people to them.

The truth is far, far more nuanced than this. It's not a case of all entrepreneurs being wealth creators and foreign students having 'off the scale' work ethic. Things are far more variable and complicated in the real world.

You can study and train as a nurse - without needing a university to do so. I am in the medical field and many nursing has indeed changed. Education is perpetual and lifelong but you really don't need a university with all the overhead costs that entails to support nursing and ongoing medical education. The baseline degree, yes but even then - much of it is placement based. It was ever thus

There is a backlash on the medical degree by apprenticeship that has just been introduced but the reality is - if delivered well and properly funded, it makes a lot of sense. Same can be done for many vocations and let the universities be for academia and critical, blue-skying thinking that generates innovation and growth for the economy. They will need to be slimmed down - as tonnes of people going to university and not accessing well-paid jobs, needing benefit top-ups and never paying back loans makes zero sense and impoverishes the country.

And yes - a culture change is needed! Like it or not!

I agree with this. I think Unis should be for the genuinely academic and for those who need vocational degrees.

'I think it is the absence of anything else that really drives people to them.'
This is very true. What else is on offer for young people nowadays?

Productivity in the UK has been flat since before the financial crisis eg since at least 2005.

Productivity increased in other countries around the world has increased and so have salaries. Look at the wage differential in the USA, France and Germany versus UK in the same period.

90% of state schools are rated good or above so not many areas.

Many students are now looking at a university education abroad. UK universities need to realise that they are competing on an increasingly international stage. Schools (often private) are increasingly helping students prepare overseas applications.

Of course - but in general - this is the case. There are foreign students who are funded by extremely wealthy parents and loaf about after their degrees or do nothing on return. These are overwhelmingly few.

Entrepreneurs and thought leaders I should say - change our world - also true. And that is across fields - medicine, legal, even social care. Can we create more of those? We absolutely can. Do we have an environment that nurtures them - definetely not. Do we need an environment that does - yes we do.

Do we need to change the work ethic culture in the UK? Or is it your position that, in general, most Brits are aspirational and aim to create value for the economy so that society benefits, not just their immediate nuclear family?

No it hasn’t been flat. Reference the chart I posted earlier. It has grown in a way that is comparable to Canada, Germany, France and Japan

Secondly, wage increases are not a reflection of productivity. There are many factors that affect wages: supply/demand of qualified workers, profit sharing within industries between shareholders, execs and workers, regulation & taxes, inflation/cost of living, and so on.

Just because Oftsed rate it Good doesn't mean it actually is for the pupils.
Ofsted aren't fit for purpose.
Our local state secondary is "Good" It has low outcomes, low aspirations, a narrow choice of GCSEs and bullying is rife. I don't call that "Good".

But it’s only the rich that can afford that.

Going to uni in the US is literally impossible for the majority unless your parents are loaded.

Some of those waste of money unis

Nottingham

Queen’s Belfast

Newcastle

QMUL

Dundee, Reading, Leicester, Swansea, Sussex,

to name but 9 of the 100 or so not in the ST top 30

If your accusations are correct they would not be graded as Good by Ofsted.

"I'm not just talking about private school, it is 1 example however now you've raised it: if you live in an area with poor state schools (yes these areas do exist) and you want something more for your child then you are called posh/elite etc for choosing to pay for your child's education and on here accusations of being "a posh Tory twat" amongst other things"

Virtually every parent wants more for their child when living in an area with poor state schools. Some will be able to find ways to pay for private school, others won't. I think it's wrong to understand it as those who don't are happy with their lot.

Name calling relating to those who send their children to private school is a moot point if you don't understand their motivation for doing so.

As state education is available to all, private education is a luxury item. It may not feel like that when the state options genuinely aren't good. However, they will nearly always look less good (class sizes, facilities etc.).

Private school could sell off land and amend their offer accordingly and increase class sizes, allowing the cost of VAT to be absorbed. Introducing VAT could sporn a different type of private school, build around cost per pupil funding aligned with state school per pupil funding. This would provide a more affordable option. All they need to do is ensure the quality of teaching and learning is better as class sizes and facilities would be comparable!

Yet they are
I work in Education, I know what Ofsted do and how they make gradings.
The aspirations are low as that suits the needs of the local economy and job market. I don't believe that going to the local college to do hair + beauty is aspirational for my child. Whilst I'm not knocking that career per se, I want a school where that isn't the norm for Yr 11 leavers

Why are these a waste of money?

UK universities need to realise that they are competing on an increasingly international stage

You think universities don't already know that? You obviously have no experience of working in a university.

They can't just increase class sizes if the classrooms aren't big enough. Private schools don't need big classrooms as they are usually under 20 per class. You can't just shoehorn in another 5 desks if the physical space won't allow it.
Why the hell are we aiming for current levels of state funding when that is woefully inadequate?
The argument is always "well state schools cope on less funding" when the reality is that they aren't coping! The funding per pupil in state needs raising to 10K+ per child. The issue is that noone wants their taxes increasing to enable this to happen.

So Schools are allowed to promote low aspirations, ride bullying isn’t seen and treated as a Safeguarding issue…..

Out of interest, what do you do?

Supply teachers’ pay is that low not because of too many chasing the work but because it’s linked to teacher pay, which is low,
We have a shortage of teachers and many people saying they don’t deserve pay rises…