Southport, riots and classism on MN - middle class woman started the rumours

[twodowntwotogo]

One aspect of MN that I find tiresome and upsetting is the classism, for example describing someone's taste as 'chavvy', and then the multiple posts characterising the riots as not happening in 'nice' places, and the rioters as uneducated, oiks, etc.

Today the Times is carrying an article about the instigator of the unrest:
'The woman accused of being first to post a false Muslim name for the suspect is the managing director of a clothing company. The mother of three in her mid-fifties enjoys walking, is married to an artist and counts an actor among her children. The family live in a £1.5 million farmhouse in the rural north.'

Non-paywall version here: <a class="break-all" href="https://archive.ph/2024.08.07-184043/www.thetimes.com/uk/crime/article/mother-of-three-sparked-havoc-with-false-claim-about-southport-suspect-bd6kkzgpn#selection-2207.0-2207.307" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">https://archive.ph/2024.08.07-184043/www.thetimes.com/uk/crime/article/mother-of-three-sparked-havoc-with-false-claim-about-southport-suspect-bd6kkzgpn#selection-2207.0-2207.307

So AIBU to want MN posters to dial down the classism and stop jumping to conclusions and understand that Farage and BoJo and countless other middle/upper class people may not be out on the streets setting bins on fire, but often provide the spark through inflammatory speech?

She is a long-term and very active conspiracy theorist and troublemaker- covid, vaccines etc.

You're right, OP, that it's not just working class people to blame. I'm pleased that legal action is being taken against those who contributed by spreading misinformation online.

That's OK I didn't mean to scold you but I do think you need to be mindful of what you are talking about. Which I absolutely agree with.

Your title makes this sound like this happened on MN.

It happened on Twitter!

And no MN imo opinion doesn’t need to dial anything down. If that had happened on MN it would have been challenged in seconds by other posters.

Its a shame it didn’t really. Maybe if it had then none of this would have happened.

I don't agree with the OP, but I do agree that calling someone 'chavy' isn't on.

I blame both the agitators (Farage et al) and the idiots who think that such people have their best interests at heart so all classes equally.
The only difference is that generally the MC and upper class racists are smarter and too fond of their own hides to actually riot

This really, I couldn't see Katie Hopkins set fire to a bin she thinks herself better than that.

Let's not get carried away though these rioters are just violent louts who don't really know why they are rioting. They all have their own agendas but mainly thuggery

But plenty call people 'posh' or 'snobby' unchallenged

Punching up versus punching down.

I didn't mean to imply it happened on MN, but it's notable that the narrative on MN from a lot of posters is about ignorant 'chavs' rioting and it not happening in what they're calling nice areas.
With the news about the woman who instigated the misinformation it struck me that I find the classism on MN in general pretty distasteful, and that if asked who posters believed started the rumour I don't think many of those kind of posters would say it was someone fitting that profile.

It's the same as anything, the working class blame the middle and upper classes and the middle and upper classes blame the working class.

The working class are always angry about injustices real or perceived and so are often easy to manipulate and rile up. Farage knows this all too well and uses it to his advantage.

The wealthy are generally advantaged by the ability to work anywhere and are not threatened by outsiders coming in to work in sectors like banking or medicine.

It's different from the working classes who are typically disadvantaged by movement of labour.

This is why working class parties have always been inclined to restrict movement of labour. It's only once they give up on workers, and become the party of professional elites, that they give up those kinds of policies.

I thought Channel3 News (whoever they are) started it, but it seems they got it from this crazy woman. Hopefully she'll be put away for a good long time.

The working class are always angry about injustices
Really? All of us? I'm not easily manipulated thanks. This sounds like you think working class people are less intelligent and quicker to anger. It's a really dodgy attitude.

See also , Oswald Moseley, Enoch Powell and more recently Lawrence Fox.

noblegiraffe · Today 12:38
Punching up versus punching down

So sneering st someone for being posh or snobby is acceptable because it’s punching up?
That is both unreasonable and cowardly - you can attack someone for being posh but no retaliation is permitted.
If any ‘posh’ children who are taught by you are sneered at by their class mates do you say ‘that’s fine - sneer away’ because it’s punching up?

I don't think that's true. Racism amongst the wealthy is simply manifested in a different way. If you're wealthy you can by and large avoid brushing shoulders with people of a different skin hue should you so wish. Therein lies the wonderful Mumsnet euphemisms such as 'nice' or 'safe' area. Usually shorthand for areas with no ethnic minorities or 'poors'. Or of course the ultimate Mumsnet horror 'chavs' which is a word I feel should be deemed as offensive as derogatory words relating to race.

There are, of course, people from an ethnic minority who appear to get a free pass, like some members of the previous cabinet. This is, of course, because they by and large are wealthy and privately educated. However, deep down, I'm pretty sure many of their colleagues deep down did not feel they were 100% 'one of us'

I am one of many who cannot understand the Mumsnet obsession with outdated stereotypes relating to class. We live in a far more nuanced society now with education and money being far more important than perceived class.

I didn't see the counterdemonstrations being predominently the 'non-racist wealthy'. Quite the opposite.

In response to the OP, I'd like to see some Mumsnet posters dial back the barely hidden derision of those who have had fewer educational and socio-economic benefits than themselves. Those things are not a proxy for being an intelligent, decent human being. Because others don't have the same tastes or presentation as you do it doesn't make them in anyway inferior to or less worthy than you. Most of the world has far more pressing issues to deal with than little Tabitha been given a chicken nugget at her friend's house.

Wow rude and judgemental. 'WC always angry about justices real or perceived'. There's plenty of angry middle class as well, I work with them. Jumping up and down over vat on school fees 😂rather than WC jumping up and down about less expensive things 😅

Agreed. The Mitfords and many of the Royals are/were astonishingly racist.

So the working class are easily manipulated and upper class are less racist? Oh come on, that's ridiculous, just look at Boris Johnson's comments about black “piccaninnies” and Muslim women looking like letterboxes and Prince Philip telling British university students who were studying in China “By the time you go back home you’ll have slitty eyes” (and asking East End women who they were sponging from) and on and on.

Interesting too that the Times is not naming this woman yet photos of the rioters are all over the news.

There are always privileged people behind the rise of fascism. And there are always middle class people who will look the other way or quietly approve sadly.

Agreed and these people had far fewer excuses for racism they had access to travel and education and privilege

Errmmm. You are agreeing with me!

Aargh sorry I am really bad at this - that wasn't intended for you, many apologies.

All good!

In fairness, the rioters filmed themselves rioting etc, or were jumping in front of the camera's going "oy oy" etc. They are more visible because they made themselves so. More clever people do it online - at least the woman in this case sounds like she has done "enough" to justify prosecution (at least according to the charges). Even cleverer people use plausible deniability, stay just on the right side of inciting violence, to get away with shit (in my opinion Farage). That's much harder to deal with because while it sticks in my throat that the richest, sneakiest people get away with it while the poor go to prison, I really don't want the lines on what constitutes free speech V hate speech to be shifted too far over. It will come back to bite us if we do that. And there is a difference between hate speech and speech someone might disagree with. The problem is you need to have clear definitions in law and if you do that, clever people will always find space to get away with shit. That can't be helped unfortunately.