To think the anti-immigrations have BEEN "heard"?

[dropoutin]

I posted something like this on one of the riot threads but it ws locked soon after.

Is anyone else getting really bored of people justifying racism, terror, violence and destruction by insisting how important it is that those who imagine asylum seekers are responsible for the country's problem are "heard".

Little reminder: It's exactly that particular obsession that led to the Brexit referendum in 2016, and the most radical - and destructive - political change of recent times.

There were several years in which the country barely discussed anything else. Farage and Johnson got to tell you in great detail how the reason you're poor is because of the black family down the road. And you got the choice of believing them, or not. You even got to make Johnson PM so he could "get Brexit done" and "level up" your community.

You've been taken for a ride. Asylum seekers rriving irregularly (via small boats etc) make up less than 5% of total immigration, which is coming down after peaking in 2022 (partly due to the Ukraine war, and other factors). Neither Tories nor Labour are going to radically reduce immigration because anyone having to ACTUALLY run the country can see that doing so will exacerbate the demographic time-bomb, reduce economic activity and decimate the NHS. You're poor because of 14 years of Conservative economic policy, not because of anyone's skin colour or passport.

Meanwhile: How many of us get to have a national referendum tailored around our favourite policy hobbyhorse? When is my referendum on industrial relations? On housing and land ownership? On the House of Lords? When do I get to be "heard"? Being heard doesn't mean everyone has to agree with you, or that you get to go out and beat up brown people because things aren't working out the way you imagined they would.

It's not that you haven't been heard. It's just that you were wrong.

I think this could be the reason why people are against illegal migration, us the tax payers are paying for this, people who have paid their taxes for years don’t get free prescriptions, dental care and glasses, I can understand they’ve had enough

This!
May I add that the current tax payer is the one who is funding the pension fund. With a growing pension age population and a shrinking working age population, the economy is going to suffer even more.

And don’t start the argument but I built my pension fund over last 40 so I’m entitled to £££ , I’m sorry but state pension doesn’t work this way, it is NOT A POT, the money you contribute is not saved for your pension like a private one. Your state pension comes out of the current tax payers’ money. So the smaller the tax collected with a shrinking population, the smaller your pension will be.
Summary, we need a bigger working population (especially ones in the higher tax brackets) to fund the growing number of pensioners.

A major issue is most of what people suggest is not viable, eg fixing this with safe routes etc

When the decision is between security and calm like Aus or destabilised as this grows

It’s a starker choice but more realistic

I don’t know why anyone would choose the latter but maybe they would

Agree with you totally OP and agree with others who feel that they are intelligently trying to discuss the many different aspects of this issue being lumped in with the rioters. There are significant numbers of people who enjoy violence and suffering and inflicting it on other people and will always find a way to do this, whether it be through a riot or within the four walls of their home. One could play devil''s advocate here and say they have been lied to, hence the rage. However, what they fail to see (because they aren't really interested in anything other than projecting their own uncontained hate onto others) is that they are being lied to AGAIN by the likes of Farage and Robinson who are so consumed by their own ego needs that they will stop at nothing to have that need satiated; the only peolple really being heard here are them while the rest of us rip each other to shreds and stop listening and trying to understand. Undermining education, devaluing aspiration and keeping people stressed and distracted has always been the most effective way of perpetuating the obscene privilege that hides behind almost every social problem we are seeing in this country. NHS, GP's, vets, dentists, care homes, nurseries: behind them all lurk the venture capitalists and corporations whose only modus operandi is to make more profit and there is NEVER enough money for them; no limit, no end where they say, I think we've got enough now. So they take and take and eviscerate like locusts, gorging themselves on wealth and profit and money, dehumanising 'service users' and employees in the process and exploit ignorance so that the most innocent, vulnerable and powerless pay the price for their infinite, boundless greed.

While I understand your sentiment "not as bad as some countries" isn't a justification ( I could be missing something) "I haven't heard of gays being thrown off a roof." No, I have heard of Black people killed in custody and mental health institutions. Black women are 5x more likely to die in childbirth. We are not equal in this country.

There won't be a state pension. My prediction is the retirement age to rise and no state pension eventually. No money and things will only get worse.

This.

Looking around me, i don't think this reflects the culture of the UK i live in. I have experienced plenty of harassment, discrimination and assault because I'm a woman. Double so because I'm also disabled.

You're taking an ideal (as a UK value) and pointing out where it hasn't worked. That's perfectly reasonable. It is still a value though.

And I didn't say the ideal is to be "equal". It's "equal under the law". I have no information about death in childbirth but that's very sad.

I grew up in Northern Ireland. I always felt threatened walking past a group of British soldiers - they weren't shy about shouting sexist remarks, trying to get us into their Landrover, driving slowly behind us as we walked home at night and you know holding a big gun and pointing it at us didn't help much. And they hung around our school every morning when we were getting off the bus - shouting obscene sexual comments. They were very British, had the legal right to be there, their nationality didn't seem to prevent their appallingly threatening behaviour!

We are able to make our own immigration policies. Our fair share is something the UK can decide.

Definitely, but not one you can ask people to live by if the country doesn't live by it. If people want the type of integration they speak of people need to feel safe.

Would love to hear more British values!

Well I sort of assume by and large it does? If there are so many asylum applicants particularly those fleeing persecution for being gay?

This thread is full of people who by sheer good luck were born in a safe, stable country where human rights and freedoms are largely upheld and the nation is governed by a democratically elected government under the rule of law,

But it’s collapsing, because we were unable to bring discipline and accountability to those who try to upturn all these great things about our county.

We don’t have an immigration problem. We have a religious segregation problem and racial tension. It’s not colour, it’s culture that causes issues.

Does seem on MN that it's all a very one sided way of thinking.
Immigrants, all great. They are our future NHS workers.They will save your life. They are all very vulnerable and have good intentions. They will enrich us and we will all be the better for it. If you oppose this or show concern you will automatically be labelled a racist or bigot.
When you shut down debate and concerns it can only go one way. But I can see I am wasting my time here and that I will be called uneducated, bigoted and far right.

Well you are picking one area. Let's talk about life in the UK for Black and Brown people.

Of course we should look after people fleeing from persecution but then we need to ensure they are treated equally when the get here.

Your examples are examples of male violence and intimidation (likely they were male). And now the male violence from last week is being answered with more male violence.

Yet many posters on here are not addressing that.
We already have a problem with male violence, why are we importing more ?

You mean like Benidorm or the Costa del Sol?

But I agree, it would be brilliant if those concerned with migration could start being honest, especially with themselves. But I fear that would mean having to confront some uncomfortable truths.

I mean let's take Clacton as an example. Clacton is one of the whitest towns in the country, with something like 96% of the population being white British. Yet they were so concerned with the impact of immigration that the elected Nigel Farage to represent them. It would be brilliant if they could let us know exactly what impact they thought immigration was having on their lives but, they'd have to be open to accepting they might be wrong before any progress could be made.

They’ve been nothing but flipping heard, I agree OP.
They equate “heard” with getting exactly their own way.

No surprise the actual rioters have been mainly male. The women involved seem to be mainly thieves - not solely but mainly - (and still less numerous than the male thieves)

Quite right

Well tolerance for homosexuality is a British value which was in response to the original question of what is a British value.

Looking at another British value...equality under the law. I understand that you cannot discriminate for reasons of race in employment for example. Obviously that isn't perfect but it's much better than the 1970s.

I think you are conflating treatment of British citizens with treatment of people not yet British citizens. I'm not sure the state makes a distinction re treatment based on skin colour but on citizenship.

How bad would it have to get before you, and pp, think another system that brings stability would be better?

Thanks it's better than the 70's I'm so grateful.

Ok. What employment law would you change to improve the rights of black and brown British citizens?