To wonder why we don't force GPs to work as NHS employees like every other doctor

[OptimismvsRealism]

They're the weak point for the entire health service and they make a fortune while hospital doctors pick up their mess

Well they are leaving in droves so pissing them off further probably isn’t the best plan is it?

What would the benefit be if you force them to be employed by the NHS?

I'm just wondering what your take on this is?

Can you expand on what you mean by ‘the weak point for the entire health service?’ What do you mean by this and what’s your evidence to support what you’re saying? @OptimismvsRealism

Can you clarify what you mean?

Maybe the NHS should be more appealing as an employer

@OptimismvsRealism , your understanding of the entire situation is ignorant.
One day people will realise that doctors in general deserve to be paid well. That’s how life works, not many can do what they do.
You can’t by the way force anything, learn your place in that respect.

Some GP practices have remained using telephone consultations and make it hard to get appointments. I really do worry when I read some tales of GP practices and how hard it is to see someone

As a retired GP I never worked harder than I did in the last 4 years of my career (COVID) but before that things were getting worse. When you build thousands of houses but you can't get GPs then services suffer.

The current model of General practice is much cheaper to run than a salaried health board run service...if a health board took over a practice they always wanted to get it back into an independent contractor status as it was much cheaper.

I was a GP for 32 years. The last 7/8 broke me totally.

Some practices are badly run but the vast majority of us are just trying to provide a service.

Nationalising the health service sounds a good idea to me. Removing the profit motive and forcing alignment with hospitals.

The current model definitely isn't cheaper. It enriches GP partners at many times the pay of even top hospital consultants.

How?

Could we have a link to these salaries please?

Of course they "work for the NHS" - all their money comes from the NHS doesn't it?

Each NHS funded GP practice has the autonomy to work out for themselves how many hours the Partners need to put in, how many salaried non-Partner GPs to employ and what other specialists they need in order to serve their community. The same amount of work would get done for broadly the same amount of money if it was under an umbrella trust rather than autonomous to a local level, although a centralisation would probably lead to higher wastage as an extra layer of managerial oversight would be added in, taking a slice of the budget for not much benefit.

Are you suggesting communism? Will you also be forced to work for a specific place with a defined salary or GPs

What on EARTH are you going on about @OptimismvsRealism ?

Probably due to the shortage of doctor's at present, then they have the government over a barrel

My GP’s surgery were pretty woeful with my last 2 referrals so l relate about them being the weak point. Referral 1 they didn’t submit it as urgent (NHS guidelines said it is), submitted it to the wrong hospital and when they got the inevitable decline they didnt bother to tell me. Then did nothing. Until l chased them about it and they then claimed managing referrals isn’t their job. That is literally what they are paid for, who else’s responsibility is it?! If l hadn’t managed it then l would be waiting forever. They might eventually reply to my complaint about it all but might not 🤷‍♀️

When the funding model changed about 14 years ago, GPs went from patient focused to money focused almost overnight. All the ones I worked with fired their lovely practice managers and brought in business managers to maximize profits. There are some good doctors, but a lot who are only in it for the money.

You can't "force" anyone to work where they don't want to. What would be a better suggestion would be a restructuring of the NHS and a look at all the funding that goes to the top managers getting fat doing nothing, rather than the really hard workers like the nurses, who are paid a pittance. It is a systemic problem, not a problem with individual doctors.

They don’t get ‘paid a fortune’ - salaried GPs are paid pretty commensurately with their skill set.

GPs that run their surgeries as businesses are providing a service to the NHS and have to meet the terms of the standard NHS contract.

I am not a GP but two of my close friends, a sibling and one parent are. I assure you they aren’t the ‘weak point of the NHS’ but another place in which decades of under funded social care is putting huge pressure on a system that wasn’t designed to meet the needs it is trying to serve.

I’ve been a doctor for 29 years and I don’t know anyone who is in it for the money 🤔 Why is it ok to continually debate doctors salaries?? You be a GP for a week and see how you enjoy it! I’m not one anymore by the way, I got burnt out at 40 and work in another specialty now for much less money than you think

Where will the funding come from to build or buy GP surgeries?

I don’t know anyone who is in it for the money 🤔

Unfortunately that is not my experience. Out of 30 practices we covered, all immediately told us they would charge us for rooms because otherwise it was 'money out of their pockets' - even though it was a service for their patients. One business manager told me she was not there for the staff or patients, she was there to maximise earnings in the practice. There are lot of GPs who are lovely and supportive and in it to provide great patient care. But it was eye opening to see how quickly things changed in most of the practices when the funding model changed.

Force them? What, at gunpoint?

And you don’t think loads of them would just go private or emigrate or do something else?

People do have options.

I am in Canada at the mo and the NHS seems to have a reputation for “part time doctors”

I love our NHS but it is interesting to see how other countries view it!

Are you a doctor? Where is your knowledge from? What's your source of information?

A: the majority of GPs are not NHS employees they are contractors.
B: they would slso argue that they've picked up a lot of the work that was done in hospital.
C: a fare few gp practices were on the verge of bankruptcy.

By the way, I'm not a doctor but I work with every sector of healthcare, from primary to tertiary care.

How many patient contacts do GPs in Canada have in a day? Here it's around 40. Just wondering if it's worth moving.

That is interesting. I’ve had several phone calls from my GP surgery at 7pm, from GPs who’ve been there all day.

The surgery opens at weekends, on a rota with others.

Since when has it got the fashion to piss on other professionals? Teachers get it, NHS staff get it, Police Officers get it.

Society would be in trouble without all these lazy part timers!

Not saying that’s what you necessarily think bluejay. I know you’re only passing it on.