To marvel at privately educated Keir Starmer's hypocrisy?

[Bursarysadness]

Both Kier Starmer and his wife are privately educated. Kier's senior school converted into a private school in the second year of his attendance and he has received a generous full bursary up until his A levels. He has built his life and his success on this education, supported to the end by the bursary funded by the same schools and parents he is now trying to destroy. It pains me as my children receive 50% bursaries from a brilliant local school. We've worked incredibly hard to cover the remaining 50% but it has been worth it, seeing how my children blossomed. We had a very different experience in their primary state schools, including bullying and racism. We don't live in a great area. We have just been told that the school will probably reduce all their bursaries to be able to lower the fees for the non bursary parents who are now struggling because of the VAT introduction. I don't know what the future for my children is now and they have so many close friends where they are. They are both academically brilliant and work very hard - hence the bursaries were granted. I feel so depressed that, from what is becoming obvious, they won't be able to benefit from the generosity of bursaries the same way Kier Starmer did when he was a child ..

I think this is an interesting point. As while I support the policy, I do think this is the major ideological flaw, as it does nothing to address the problem of the wealthiest in society continuing their ability to pay to elevate mediocrity and ring fence their advantage. However, realistically short of a radical redistribution of wealth of a type that would never win the support of the relatively conservative/capitalist UK electorate, I'm not sure that will ever be resolved. I suppose the best the policy does from an ideological standpoint is distance the government from active support of the inequality by removing the support of a tax exemption. However I have to agree that the opinion you refer to does highlight a flaw so I do understand why people are arguing that point.

Yes, they do but some are overwhelmed with new applications. They can’t just magic places out of thin air, it takes time if new places have to be created because there are no spaces in existing schools.

No it’s not a shitty business practice. You have to give one terms notice to allow the school to plan for their staffing requirements etc. Fees are due at the beginning of the term but if your child doesn’t turn up and you haven’t paid the fee, you are still liable for it. Many people pay over nine or ten months like I do so have already started paying for the new term anyway.

@Dibblydoodahdah I think people questioning you why you have one child in private and one in state and why don't you want to give the kid in state the same advantage as the other one are missing one key point. I don't think people want to see this point - sometimes private education doesn't offer an advantage but it helps to reduce a disadvantage. It's a very inconvenient point for people to see. It's much easier to blindly hate one group of people without thinking of individual cases and admit that not everything is black and white

I work at a university. We only charge tuition once you're actually on-site plus if you drop out in the first few of weeks you get refunded.

For a private school to force you to plan that far ahead and then still charge you even if your DC doesn't attend is a consumer-unfriendly business practise. Or shitty, if you will.

My point is that academically brilliant children can get 100% bursaries or combination of bursary and scholarship.

Malvern offers bursaries up to 110% of fees. Eton will cover 100% of fees plus pocket money. Christ's hospital is well known for providing financial aid.

If my hypothetical children were 'academically brilliant' I would not be limiting them to a local school.

Obviously not everyone agrees with boarding and you have chosen the school you obviously feel is good for your children.

This is a silly point @HowardTJMoon . For someone who claims to be an academic. Universities work differently to schools. Whether you have 20 people in a lecture hall or 34 - you still have one lecturer. Schools have classes and need to allocate specific teachers, books, other resources. Smaller classes mean that everything has to be managed closely and differently. They are asking for a 3 months notice, not a year.

Yes, I wouldn't choose boarding for many reasons. My school offers either bursaries or scholarships. All academic scholarships at my school are 10-20% max as it's not a posh school so they give what they can to be competitive and attract the brightest. You can't have a 100% bursary because you are so "academically brilliant". It's simply not how bursaries work. Bursaries are means tested. If someone is brilliant and has absolutely nothing, they can get 100%. If someone, like us, has something but not much - they tell you how much they think you can pay and they won't give you more. Not all schools are full of money to spend freely as they wish. I chose our school (which is actually not local at all so my children go by train ever day) because of values, and the social and cultural mix they have. So not all kids are rich and not all kids are white and middle class

People buying the same foods are not taxed differently. If I buy Aldi chocolate digestive biscuits and you buy M&S chocolate digestive biscuits, we're both taxed, it doesn't matter if one of us is a millionaire. If I buy a Lidl cabbage and you buy an M&S cabbage then neither of us is taxed, it doesn't matter if one of us is a millionaire. The tax is applied to the item, not the purchaser (unless you're a foreign visitor - not sure how that will work with VAT on schools though...!). Given that universities are also selective and fee-charging, I assume you support adding VAT to their fees, as that's clearly a choice?

One minute people are saying "what terrible business models" if they can't afford to stay open - thry deserve to fail - and the next "what terrible business practice asking for a term's notice". Make your minds up.

I get sashh's point and most private schools do give bursaries and scholarships to able pupils, some quite generous, but entry is competitive and many very clever children do not receive them, because there are other children equally able. It's worth trying but parents have to be prepared for their application to be rejected, or else the award far less than they had hoped.

Most schools stopped academic scholarships which used to be available even for the well off and just do bursaries for the less well off now, probably in response to the change in definition of charity in a legal change around 2010. Some boarding schools like Eton are able to afford full scholarships (no fees at all). I think Manchester Grammar school (private school) day school - was trying to move to blind entry in terms of no fees if you have no money and full fees if you do and entry to all who applied, but not reached that point as yet - in a sense that is what that school was like and my brother's old school which were Direct Grant schools - abolished in the 1970s where the state gave a direct grant and children from better off families paid the fees and those who were not paid nothing (a bit like the assisted places scheme which came later and was also abolished).

Thank you @Xenia ... Got a bit fed trying to defend it ..

Very,very few private schools offer full bursaries. The majority are small-some even token. And there are always far more applicants than bursaries......

@blueskies73 would this be a bad time to point out I didn't claim to be an academic?

It doesn't make a big difference to a private school if there are 19 pupils in a class instead of 20.

Companies can have both terrible business models and terrible business practises. It's not an either-or. If anything, I'd hazard a guess that if a given company has one it's probably got the other, too.

How absurd - you think people should be able to turn around one day and say "we're not coming back tomorrow"? How is that good business planning? It's not unreasonable to require one term's notice - I've never heard of any private school that doesn't do that. I'm a private school governor at a small school. It's not about having a terrible business model- it has decent levels of reserves given the size of the school but those don't last forever and if 10 children leave it has a huge impact on fee income. Incidentally it has been inspected and is excellent in all areas - that is why it exists - not to make a profit and grow into a huge entity.

The point is that you are just being unnecessarily unkind about OP's child. Envy is rearing its head.

Would anyone be prepared to speak to this journalist? It's from the Education not Taxation FB group. Thought someone on here would have a story that fits?

OP why on EARTH do you think anyone on Mumsnet would side with you re private schooling or KS?! Are you new here? You must be.

@tennesseewhiskey1 "OP why on EARTH do you think anyone on Mumsnet would side with you re private schooling or KS?! Are you new here? You must be."

Because Mumsnet is skewed private education and Centre Right/Right. Most posters on this thread support her.

Thank you @mumedu . This is exactly how I read her original message...

We live in a democracy last time I checked.

There was no failing to prepare.

There was zero point a private school parent giving notice on a school place early in 2024, just incase the liberals called an election in July…and just incase labour got in…. and just incase labour went against reports they were going to bring in the vat in Sept 2025 forward to Jan 2025.

Private school parents need to give a terms notice - labour knew that and still went fuck you all we don’t give a shit about the extra pressure we are putting on these families or the innocent victims the kids.

And while it’s wonderful you moved house and your kids were sorted within a month - it’s not the same for everyone. My Ukraine refuge’s son was in a uk government high school and he was so badly bullied to the point some evil kids put a plastic bag over his head on the bus ride home - and despite his school knowing about the abuse it took us longer than a month to have him moved to a new school.

So be smug I hope karma catches up to you.

We do indeed live in a democracy. Don't think I have suggested otherwise.
His school place was not sorted within a month, I believe I said "eventually". It took 3 months and lots of chasing actually. But I accept that it was my choices that lead to needing an in year place.
Why is a months notice a vast issue? They were happily going to pay the fees for a entire year, why is one term such a great problem all of a sudden?
If stability is so paramount, one would think affordability would have been a greater consideration. But it seems personal responsibility is reserved for those lower down the pecking order.

Having read all the points in the thread, I’m more convinced than ever that this is a poorly thought out, idealistic policy. Education being VAT exempt is a legitimate, widely adopted policy. I see no argument presented where there isn’t an equally as valid counter argument. I have seen no justification for VAT on private schools but not universities.

I have two issues;

• this will not impact equality positively. It may, in fact, have the opposite impact. Not until you remove the 11+ system and put in place a more equitable admissions process that doesn’t allow selection by house price.
• It is entirely unfair to expect one section of society, who already shoulders by far and away the largest tax burden of all, to be expected to fund education reform. This should be done through PAYE/CGT and applied to all tax payers.

I really hope it faces legal challenges and fails to be adopted.

I'm really not. If both of your children are 'academically brilliant' which the OP said her children are why would you limit them?