to think DSDs could be a category in the Paralympics?

[miniaturepixieonacid]

If having a DSD is a medical condition which makes an XY individual less physically able than typical XY individuals (men) then could there not be an argument for them to be a class in male paralympic competition. Would that be offensive to anyone?

I'm not suggesting trans individuals should be included in this way at all. But DSDs are different. I feel terrible sorry for these women who are not literally women due to something they can't control. I think they should be able to compete in sport. But not against biological women. It's not fair that they should have an advantage over biological women. But also not fair that they should have to compete at a disadvantage with biological men.

For any that have been recruited into their sport purely because they have a DSD - well, I suppose they suddenly wouldn't be interested any more in the same way that many trans swimmers suddenly weren't interested when offered an open category. But for those who really love their sport it could be a solution? And it wouldn't matter whether they identify as women, men or non binary because it would irrelevant to the competition.

I don't know if there are enough people who would qualify that it would be a practical solution. There's nothing stopping people from pursuing activities that interest them, but not everyone will be able to do everything. This may just be 'one of those things'. Fortunately, life is full of things to do and try, and in most of them, your sex chromosomes don't really matter.

I thought this earlier too OP. Would make sense but agree that there may not be enough competitors for each sport.

I doubt there would ever be a big enough field of competitors for most of the sports.

I think this falls under the category of 'unfortunately that means you can't compete in the Olympics'.

I mean, it's not a human right or anything. I'd lose no sleep over someone being denied entry, but I do over women being repeatedly being punched in the head by biological males.

There's no physical reason those males with DSDs couldn't compete in the standard men's category. Having a DSD doesn't make them unable to compete on a level playing field with other males. They're literally just not good enough.

I mean. I understand them not wanting to if they have been raised as female. But again...it goes in the 'unfortunately that means you can't compete in the Olympics then' category.

But not being good enough does make you unable to compete with 'standard' men at an international level. In the same way as being blind or having an amputation or cerebral palsy does.

I take the point that there might not be many competitors but I wonder whether it would become something that people who know they have this condition might take up and become competitive in. I know someone who was a standard, relatively sporty person at school but nothing special. In their mid teens they had an organ transplant and now they compete internationally in the transplant games (which I had never heard of before). They would never have thought of competing at that level before the transplant. So, in a way, having a life disadvantage can bring a small compensation of becoming eligible to compete in elite sport. It just has to be the right category of elite sport.

I was thinking this yesterday OP. It would be a limited category, but some of the Paralympic categories are very limited too. I think it's a great idea.

You’re missing the point. They’re not good enough to compete in the male category just as my DH isn’t good enough to compete in the male category! Someone with the same DSD as, say Semeneya, would have been made aware of their DSD around the age of 12 when they failed to go through female puberty. Sports scouts at elite levels are very aware that in certain parts of the world the % of babies born with DSDs is high, these teens may well be performing well in high school athletics as girls and before they know it they’ve been talent spotted.
Any teen whose talent scouted will have a bank of tests performed to ascertain all sorts of data about their health, from birth, and to predict their future development. This would likely be the point where Semeneya’s DSD was confirmed. It’s like writing a blank cheque for the athlete, scout, family. That’s the point where the teen is exploited but eventually they are so heavily invested that they continue to collude with this lie.

It's such a unique situation that there really isn't an answer, I don't think.

I do however think it's unfair that someone with such high testosterone can compete, against someone who would be disqualified if they took drugs to make their levels the same.

It's such a rare occurrence that it can only ever be dealt with on a case by case basis - but particularly in boxing, I just think it's unfair for a female to be against someone whose hormone levels and more similar to that of a male.

But then we'd just have Paralympic categories of averagely talented people. Being average isn't any kind of medical condition or disability, most of us are average (or worse) at sports. We can't all be in the Paralympics.

Having the DSD 5ARD post puberty doesn't give you any sporting disadvantages against any other post pubertal male. You might have a small penis and internal testes, but that doesn't affect you doing any sports. For sporting purposes they're literally just ordinary males. That's be like having a Paralympic category for people who'd once broken their arm, it's nothing like having a transplant. The Paralympics shouldn't become a 'anyone can have a go' event, it's for elite athletes.

The boxers under discussion at the Olympics didn't fail testosterone tests. They failed sex tests, ie they are biological males. They're not females with unusually high testosterone, they're males with normal male testosterone, and all the physiological advantages which male puberty gives.

Oh, I see what you mean. We're coming at it from different beliefs. You're seeing them as 'average men'. I'm seeing them as women with a medical condition. So, as they were competing as women and now cannot due to unfairness on other comeptitors, I'm trying to think of solutions to make it fairer for them and prevent them having to abandon their career/passion. Whereas, from your point of view, there's nothing to make up for because you see them as always having been men.

I think it would be offensive to disabled people as it's a medical condition, not a disability. It doesn't meet any definition of disability (Equalities Act or international law).

DSD also isn't one single condition - it's an umbrella term for various disorders that affect different people in a range of ways. So it wouldn't work as one Paralympic category.

The Paralympics aren't a dumping ground for anyone who doesn't fit in neatly elsewhere.

@Lincoln24 That's the kind of offence I was thinking of. I wasn't sure if disabled people would view it that way or not, or whether a DSD would be defined as a disability or not.

They're not women with a medical condition though; they're men with a medical condition, surely.

Biologically, yes. I'd call them males with a medical condition. But I wouldn't call them men because they have grown up as women, physically and emotionally with all the societal influences that women experience. That's why they're so unique. There's no such thing as a male woman, logically, but I think it's the only compassionate way forward for them. Males but not men. And I think people would be much more accepting of that if it wasn't for the separate trans agenda.

Right, so males shouldn't compete with women. That's kinda it really. Regardless of how they were raised and socialised.

I don't think we need a separate category. The occurrence of DSDs is quite rare and as medical standards continue to improve in the developing world less and less individuals with DSDs will be incorrectly diagnosed at birth.

Its pretty rare- doubt there’d be enough people to compete

Males with 5ARD haven't grown up as women, they know they are male from puberty. It's called 'balls at 12' in an area of the Dominican Republic where it's more common than usual. But even if those individuals have grown up socialised as females, socialisation doesn't do sport, bodies do.

I get wanting to show compassion to people who've had a difficult experience, but having a difficult experience doesn't mean you can have some sporting awards as compensation. It's not fair to actual women or to disabled athletes to try to shoehorn these individuals into elite competition. It's shit for them but athletes have career ending medical events all the time.and it's just tough.

Not being good enough to compete at the Olympics will put them in the general population, what's so wrong about that?

SportingDreams Most of the population haven't had an elite sporting career/amateur career that they can then no longer carry on with because of a medical condition. That's what makes a DSD individual more similar to an elite athlete that goes blind or loses a limb than they are to a Joe Bloggs who was never good enough.

I can see both sides because it is a rule change/change of public opinion that is stopping these athletes competing rather than a new medical condition. But it is still a medical condition nonetheless which is why I thought perhaps it could be accommodated by the paralympics as an alternative. Of course the paralympics shouldn't be for all average people who want to compete. It should be for exceptional people. But these athletes were competing at an elite level and now they can't. Which is far more shit than never being good enough in the first place.

It was whether or not disabled people would be offended that I was pondering. And a PP has said that they would be so I suspect it's not a viable idea. Disabled people shouldn't have to accomodate it if they don't want to, any more than women should.

Maybe a gender neutral, free for all games?? Would be dangerous if biological women entered but they probably wouldn't. But I guess that's like the idea of the Open category for trans in the main olympics which didn't have any take up.

An injury or illness can happen to any athlete at any time. 2 of team GBs runners (twins) have MS. The Jamaican team missed out on their chance of a sprint medal due to a cock up with transport. No one is entitled to compete at this level, you earn it fair and square.

Yes, true. But these athletes aren't injured or ill. Some of them are right at the peak of their careers and doing well. It's because they are 'too good' or because of their effect on other competitors that they can't compete. That's why I think an alternative category is fairer than just saying 'tough shit'. They did earn their position and their bodies are still physically capable of doing it. It's unfortunate for them that their presence makes it unfair on others.

They're not "too good" they've got the advantage of male puberty behind them. Watch the mixed medley swimming from tonight if you need clarification of the effects of male Vs female puberty in the same sport.

Another example is from the Rio Olympics where the 800m medalists were all athletes with XY chromosomes and DSD. The coaches are callous and seek these individuals out to make money off them.

It's devastating to get horrible news about your health that turns your life upside down but it doesn't mean others should suffer too.