to think DSDs could be a category in the Paralympics?

[miniaturepixieonacid]

If having a DSD is a medical condition which makes an XY individual less physically able than typical XY individuals (men) then could there not be an argument for them to be a class in male paralympic competition. Would that be offensive to anyone?

I'm not suggesting trans individuals should be included in this way at all. But DSDs are different. I feel terrible sorry for these women who are not literally women due to something they can't control. I think they should be able to compete in sport. But not against biological women. It's not fair that they should have an advantage over biological women. But also not fair that they should have to compete at a disadvantage with biological men.

For any that have been recruited into their sport purely because they have a DSD - well, I suppose they suddenly wouldn't be interested any more in the same way that many trans swimmers suddenly weren't interested when offered an open category. But for those who really love their sport it could be a solution? And it wouldn't matter whether they identify as women, men or non binary because it would irrelevant to the competition.

For goodness sake stop simping for men who are unfairly taking opportunities and medals away from women.

They are not elite athletes, if they were they could complete in their correct class.

Would that be offensive to anyone?

Yes, because it implies that women with increased testosterone levels are disabled men, which is incorrect and offensive.

They’re not men. They’re not trans. They are women born with female genitalia.

I think we're saying the same thing but have different opinions as to the solution.

Yes, I can definitely see that view point. But that suggests that having a disability is a bad thing. A disability is a difference in ability. Which these athletes have.

I too have a difference in ability, namely, I’m not good enough for the olympics. Does this mean I can compete in the paraolympics? Just like some people suggest taking over the disabled toilets for trans identifying men? What other protected characteristic rights should we trample on to appease this oppressed minority of MEN?

Obviously it depends on the exact DSD but the vast majority of them don’t have female genitalia, they have micro d*cks as babies and small undecended testicles. This mostly resolves at puberty though they will still likely be smaller than average.

Well no, obviously not. And I'd agree with your point if we were talking about trans men (or are they trans women? Not sure which way round it is). But we're talking about the very small numbers of women who turn out to be biologically male and therefore need to be taken out of competition. Not the same thing.

But the vast, vast majority of this very small number of “women” who turn out to be biologically male will have known about this since puberty, when testosterone kicked in, so they have no ethical justification in competing in the female category nor, as males, any claim to be disabled. Sorry if I sound hectoring: the olympic boxing scandal has really infuriated me.

No, don't worry, it's fine. I can see both sides and like a respectful debate! (though I really do need to go to bed...!)

I think the two reasons I disagree with you on that are:

1. Puberty can be anywhere from 10 - 17 and is likely to be later in individuals who are training at an elite level of sports. And possibly in individuals from developing countries, I'm not sure on that. And careers in many sports start very early - 14 - 18. So some, like Caster Semenya, could have been well underway with their career before learning that anything was wrong.
2. There weren't robust rules against them competing until recently. So they could have started their career under the criteria 'you must have been defined as female when you were born to compete' which is now (rightly!) not enough.

Most of the population haven't had an elite sporting career/amateur career that they can then no longer carry on with because of a medical condition

You’ve got it backwards, @miniaturepixieonacid . They weren’t elite athletes until they went through male puberty and were allowed to compete against girls. They were just normal kids who happened to have malformed external genitalia. Their “medical condition” is what caused them to be seen as elite athletes.

They were assumed to be one thing (female) then hit puberty and were discovered to be male after all.

Those still allowed to compete against female athletes would win, quite naturally. As winners they could access better and better coaching and training, moving through the ranks.

At each point, they win because of the advantages male puberty brings.
At each point a female athlete is denied her place because a male athlete has taken it.

These 5ARD athletes have testes, not ovaries. Being socialised as girls before puberty doesn’t make them women.

Puberty can be anywhere from 10 - 17 and is likely to be later in individuals who are training at an elite level of sports

Again, @miniaturepixieonacid , the “elite athlete” stuff comes AFTER puberty kicks in. It’s the male puberty that makes them so good in comparison to female athletes.

They aren’t training to elite levels before puberty.

Isn’t this just a case of unfortunate but for whatever reason your body is unsuited to the sport you wish to pursue.

it applies to 99.99% of the world. Most of us are unfortunately born with a body unsuited to competing in our favourite sport at a high level. It’s not fair, but it’s life. So many people would love to be able to be in the Olympics but life hasn’t blessed them with the correct physical attributes

It makes them as unable to compete in the Olympics as it did my dad and my sons. Just not talented and dedicated enough. The end.

Men with 5ARD have exactly the same physiology as any other male. If they are under-represented in athletics it is because they are so few in number. Not because the condition disadvantages them.

Men who become Olypmpians are the tiniest few very talented people who also were fortunate to be recognised at grassroots. That quality and something as rare as 5ARD coinciding is highly improbable. Not impossible, but improbable. Do you worry that too few Olympic medalists have had heterochromia of the irises? No? Stop worrying about 5ARD then.

Women's athletics exists for us to see what exceptional females can achieve. Not as a repository for underwhelming men.

How is your solution to the likely trauma that some individuals with DSDs go through when they discover they are not the biological sex they thought they were is to create an Olympic category for them. Surely the only sensible solution is to lift healthcare worldwide so the situation doesn't occur in the first place. Otherwise we will just have more unscrupulous people scouring remote villages in developing nations to find individuals to exploit.

But there would still be the issue of which sex category they belong in, even in the paralympics. And would you have different heats for the different DSDs?

And what about heats for veterans over 40/50/60 - after all, it’s unfair that fit people who’ve trained all their lives, dreamed of being an Olympian, should be denied their chance just because they are 20-30 years older than current competitors against whom they are now physically disadvantaged…perhaps heats for those with rheumatoid arthritis? And slow runs for those with Parkinsons?

So, no. This gets filed in the ‘life’s shit, get over it’ cabinet.

This is a fascinating discussion. I have a background in fetal medicine work so am interested.

It is true that individuals with DSD are over represented in elite women’s sport against the rest of the population. It’s also true that there are pockets of the world with higher rates of DSD and yes, elite sports coaches do scout those areas.

Don’t think these individuals suddenly found out they had DSD a couple of years ago at a routine blood test. They were chosen as teens and trained specifically. Like previous posters have said, these individuals are often born with ambiguous genitalia, very small penis, minute testes (usually undescended) and if a vagina is present, it leads nowhere because there is nowhere for it to go. No cervix and no uterus.

I’ve seen a load of chat online from black and brown influencers saying that this backlash against DSD athletes is racism and that the world dislikes it when powerful women don’t look like white athletes. No. DSD is over represented at a population and (consequently) and elite sporting level in sub-Saharan Africa. That’s all.

Caster Semenya took the place of a South African woman when he was enabled to compete for South Africa. It is probable that the woman whose place he took is black. We'll never know how good she was or is. Because he took her place.

As a disabled person and former athlete (strictly amateur, I was never good enough for elite competition) I think this is the most heart-breaking thread I have ever read. Athletes with DSDs shouldn't compete against women and don't want to compete against men? Chuck 'em in the Paralympics? Transwomen aren't welcome in the ladies loo? Let them use the disabled toilet. When did we become the world's dumping ground? We have an OP here with oodles of sympathy for a couple of cheating males, but cares not a jot about disabled people. Yes, OP, in answer to your faux-question, it's offensive.

The most heartbreaking? Oh. Shit. I don't really know what to say to that. I am genuinely sorry. I thought it might be a solution to heal some hurt, not cause more. And certainly never meant to think of the paraplympics as a dumping ground! My thinking was that a DSD is a physical, medical difference and could therefore legitiamtely fit in there. I didn't mention trans or disabled toilets though. I'm gender critical/anti trans and wouldn't come up with an accommodation like that - that wasn't me.

To answer the other question upthread, I don't think the sex category would remain a problem because it wouldn't matter. I think someone said all DSDs are XY or at least XXY anyway but I don't have specific knowledge on that. Certainly everything I've seen suggests that's the case. But I think just 'DSD 400m' and 'DSD Football' etc would be enough, I don't think it would need to be divided any more.

But, to be honest, if the idea is offensive to the very people that the paralympics is for then the conversation is over. It shouldn't/couldn't happen.

A free for all games would be all men!

How are you not getting this?

And they're not women who have turned out to be biologically male! They're biological males who were raised as females.

I wouldn't call them men because they have grown up as women, physically and emotionally with all the societal influences that women experience. That's why they're so unique

So gender stereotyping is what you’re talking about. Being treated like a girl (dresses, hair bows, not being allowed to fight etc) isn’t a category in sport. These are males, have tested male for a number of years using simple swabs and are being pushed through loopholes by cheats.

I think if people with DSD were treated respectfully by society as a whole then it's a possibility

As someone with a disability yes I find this completely offensive.

As pp said, it seems that the latest incarnation of "diversity and inclusion" relates to anything except disability.
If you think life was and is hard for these "poor" boxers, imagine life for those who grew up in alongside them with actual physical disabilities and save your sympathy for them.