To be bullied into making a PIP application by EXH when I don't think I'm eligible?.

[Wishitwasstraightforward]

I have a formal diagnosis of ADHD, chronic migraine and episodic cluster headaches. These conditions are all pretty disabling, especially cluster headaches as the pain is utterly excruciating and I can barely move.

I have never claimed PIP. I have looked into it and don’t consider that I am eligible- mainly because although I am often unwell, I can perform the types of tasks listed on the PIP criteria (using the toilet, feeding myself, communicating, getting dressed etc). The exception to this is during a cluster headache when I can’t do anything. However, a key criteria of PIP as I understand it, is that your conditions need to affect you 50% of the time. The truth is I am not incapacitated by cluster headaches 50% of the time. They tend to last 1-1.5 hours, are most often between 11pm and 5am and although they are unbearable I do function inbetween them albeit feeling tired, scared and battered. If I get one in the day, I can’t do anything until it’s over- I have an injectable painkiller and portable oxygen and if I get them into me in time I can feel well enough to carry on within 40 minutes, but if not it may be 2 hours before I am ok.

My husband left me 18 months ago. It was sudden and unexpected. He left our house and moved into a house that we had previously rented to tenants. We are getting divorced.

As part of the divorce, I am understandably required to maximise my earnings and also claim any benefits that I’m entitled to- this is so I can show that I am doing all I can to support myself before looking to EXH for a financial settlement.

I am self employed and am working very hard despite my health conditions to earn a salary that is bit more than a minimum wage full time job. I manage this by having a job that is entirely flexible, so I can work around migraines and clusters. My job also doesn’t involve coming into contact with any migraine or cluster triggers. I’ve been given help from the HMRC Access To Work Scheme which provides some practical help with admin so I can avoid using a PC (migraine trigger), and other things that help me to work.

The divorce process has been brutal. EXH has taken every opportunity to be difficult and adversarial. I’m exhausted by it. He has a great deal of money, assets, earns a massive salary etc etc.. I am not asking for much at all IMO.

The whole process is horrible and complicated and we have been to court once, with another date set for December of we can’t agree.

He is insisting that I have not given an adequate explanation for not applying for PIP (I sent a copy of the criteria and said I did not meet them 50% of time). He’s raised a schedule of deficiency for the court saying that if I am too unwell to earn more money, then I should get PIP. My understanding of PIP is that it’s nothing to do with how much you can earn, and everything to do with whether you live independently. I’m baffled as to why his solicitor is pushing this point given she is an expert in family law and surely should know how PIP works?

I know many people incorrectly assume PIP is for people who can't work at all, or much due to their health. But my understanding is that's not the case.....

They will not listen to reason. I’m wondering if it would be easier to just apply for PIP- despite being sure I’m not eligible. But it just feels dishonest and unnecessary. I would absolutely be truthful if I claimed and so presumably I’d then get turned down and EXH will use this fact to claim that as PIP has rejected me I am not significantly affected by my health and should both get a different job earning more money, and also not be looking to him for a settlement that takes my health into account.

My solicitor isn’t much help, I have been trying to get advice from citizens advice for weeks but with no joy.

Can anyone offer any thoughts, advice or perspectives please- AIBU to consider applying despite not being eligible?

@OlderGlaswegianLivingInDevon and @Mickey79. The equity split is potentially complicated and provably for another thread. But in a nutshell, I have 2 DC (13 and 15) but they are not EXH's biological children so this isn't related to child maintenance. My solicitor has advised this will be a needs basis divorce and that as EXH is financially very well off what I am asking for is very reasonable.

@MatildaTheCat that's a good point, thank you.

You have already been given help through the access to work scheme, which points to a level.of disability. You also have medication and a oxygen tank prescribed.

Even if you failed the PIP application you still have medical evidence that shows you are not 100% healthy and the steps you have taken to be able to work at all, thus proving that min wage (or slightly over) is the best you can do at the moment - whilst keeping some level of ability to live your life and look after your kids.

These will stand for you in court

Your Ex sounds like an arsehole

Are you getting UC? If you are still named on the rental property ex-h is living in it might be best to separate financial assets so you can claim UC and be slightly better of. Unfortunately for ExH UC amounts don't affect how much maintenance he has to pay you.
I think PIP payments are also exempt so he is making you jump through hoops for no monetary benefit for him. Arsehole.

Are you asking for a larger financial settlement than would be usual when you don’t have shared children, with your illnesses as the reason? This would explain why they are focussing on pip. But no you shouldn’t be ‘forced’ to apply for a benefit by them.

They pretty much refuse everyone the first application, and they have to appeal. So while I know it’s a lengthy process and a waste of your time, I would apply just to shut him up.

My concern is that he’s using the rejection to fuel his intent to claim you’re not disabled. So he’s trying to set you up. What proof of disability do you have? I would prepare for a big fight on this and ensure I had all proof to hand.

PIP is not proof of disability, I am disabled but do not receive PIP. My friend with the same disability does, we have the same assessment letters and similar outcomes. Yet she is affected more profoundly than I am.

@ZebraD thank you. That's how I understood it.

I accept your point WRT solicitors and the divorce process- I am really struggling to accept that his solicitor is allowed to write things that are clearly untrue, and contradictory and to unashamedly complicate and draw out the process.

I think my solicitor is relatively "no nonsense". Initially she suggested we send them a copy of the PIP criteria and state that I don't meet them (eg I can use a toilet, and dress myself). But they responded saying that as my Lilith tomorrow is impacted I should have claimed PIP and as such I am either not unwell, or refusing to claim PIP.

So now my solicitor has suggested that I write in more detail about how I am not eligible. Hence my post.

Did you contribute somehow to enable exDH to be so well off or was he already very well off before you married?

They really don't.i know loads of kids 16+ who have got higher awards on PIP than DLA
The point is though that PIP is all about do you need ia all areas of daily living the diagnosis is irrelevant and the Op say ,s she is mainly independent So is unlikely to get an award

If you don't have children with him why are you expecting money from him? It's not unreasonable for him to expect you to support yourself and if he contributed to the house and you didn't then it's his not yours.

OP, if you're in a position where you need to apply, consult any of the relevant FB groups,

https://www.facebook.com/PIPPSupport
or
https://www.benefitsandwork.co.uk/

or similar support organisations. They should be able to advise you.

I don't want to derail this thread. I paid the entire deposit on our marital home and contributed a great deal to mortgage payments also. However, this isn't relevant in a divorce as the marital home is a joint asset regardless of different contributions. He bought a second home and rented it out, but could only do this because of my contributions. It is complicated. However from my POV we were married and I need some money to cover the basics because I am unable to earn a great deal. I'm not asking for spousal maintenance and I'm not asking for anything over and above the basics.

During my divorce the judge was extremely rude - he deciphered that despite a lengthy list of ailments that because I didn’t have pip it didn’t count. And of course I could work more hours - he and the barrister were kind of mapping my life out for me as though I wasn’t even there. It was disgusting. Like they were chatting over a cup of tea and a slice of cake !
it was a misogynistic view for a lot of the things discussed. I had no representation at court but he had his male barrister.
I would personally just make sure you have a really good barrister for court bearings - they are a very good investment on reflection. I wish I had the money to have afforded one. It cost me dearly in the end.

OP the Migraine Trust have a booklet on how how migraines are affected at work which might help you frame why you need to tailor your career to your health situation.

They are really good for advice and support. It may be worth discussing your situation with them. If there is a significant amount of financial security at stake for you, consider getting a medical expert witness to assess you for a written report and potentially give evidence in court (if that’s allowed in divorce).

https://migrainetrust.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/06/Migraine-in-the-Workplace-Toolkit.pdf

Two things -

The financial settlement in the divorce is decided either by mediation (sounds unlikely in your case) or by the judge in court.

Writing letters to try to persuade him to accept you are disabled is a complete waste of time from that perspective.

However as someone who has recently applied for and got esa which is similar, I have some comments -

No a sarnie is not enough. I got points for not being able to prepare a hot meal each day. Cold meals each day esp in winter are not sufficient.

You should apply. It is a lot of hassle, but it seems quite likely to me you might qualify.

OUCH may have similar resources for cluster headaches.

Have you ever had to keep a migraine diary for your consultants? Could be worth digging those out as evidence for how your condition impacts your life and livelihood.

I was awarded PIP for chronic migraine and didn’t need to go to appeal. Examples of how I was affected: short term memory loss meant I kept forgetting I was cooking and my DH would come home to pans dried out on the hob and bits of charcoal in the oven. So I was unsafe and a fire risk. Dizziness meant I struggled to get out the shower (stepping over the side of the bath) without holding onto something for balance. The extreme fatigue meant that after the effort of showering, I would have to lay down for half an hour before getting dressed.

I was surprised (and a bit upset) to be awarded PIP as even filling out the form I hadn’t considered myself disabled. But when you analyse how these conditions affect your life, not just in the acute stages, but prodrome and postdrome, you’ll be surprised.

It is worth a punt.

Don’t what sorry? Do you mean they don’t refuse the majority of claims initially. If so then I respectfully disagree, I got my statistics from benefits and works website.

Either way it’s by the by and not really helpful to the OP.

He is kind of shooting himself in the foot here and I am not quite sure what he is attempting to prove. You already work (self employed), but earn a little above minimum wage - and you do this to allow you to work around your health issues. PIP is not means tested and is a benefit that is intended to offset any financial disadvantage that may come along with additional expenses incurred by your disability, i.e. to pay for care, transport, special diets, so you are not disadvantaged by your disability.

If you haven't already filled the form in, can I ask you to bear in mind that these should not be just yes or no answers. So can you feed yourself? If its lunch time and you have a blazing headache and need to lie down and have a pain killing shot, would you abandon that to eat? Or would you wait until you felt up to it? And after you have had your pain killing shot, do you feel drowsy and does it wipe you out for the rest of the day? Is this why you have to be self employed as no employer would give you this flexibility. Does being in this position, disadvantage you financially because you cannot take a standard 9-5 job as you can't work around the condition, the answer is yes. It needs to go in your supporting statement that you cannot take a 9-5 job due to this.

Apply for PIP, which ever way you go with this he will use it against you but it doesn't make any difference in the financial settlement. Do you have kids and are you the main carer of them, in which case he will need to pay in proportion to his income and how much he has them. If you don't have kids then its unlikely you will get maintenance, just a settlement on the joint marital holdings and PIP becomes irrelevant. And if PIP is to stop you being disadvantaged then they can't use it against you, unless of course you are not awarded it as you do not fulfil their requirements (which doesn't mean you are not ill), in which case he will try the, "she could earn more but she chooses not to" route, which you can substantiate its not true and your earnings shouldn't affect your entitlement to your fair share of the joint marital holdings unless you have kids. However, if you are entitled to PIP, The Matrimonial Causes Act 1973 outlines the criteria for financial settlements, which include the financial needs, obligations, and responsibilities of each party, as well as any physical or mental disabilities3. Therefore, if one party receives PIP due to a disability, this can influence the financial settlement to ensure their needs are adequately met (in your favour, not his). He is just being arsey and hopes that you will surrender to his demands just to end the hassle. Stand firm.

A refusal of PIP does not determine that a person is not disabled, just that they don't meet the threshold for an award. It actually says this on the disallowance notice. There is no legal basis for using a PIP award or refusal to determine the extent of a person's disability. If his solicitor tries this, make a formal complaint.

I totally agree. Until the PIP system is fair and just its determination can not be used in the way your ex and his solicitor think it can. It is a known fact they lie on the determination, we had it with my dd and it was totally removed! Thankfully, I was able to appeal get it reversed for her, but it was touch and go.

The other thing which has already been mentioned, I too didn't think PIP was classed as income, and that you can't use it when getting a loan for example. My dd couldn't use hers when trying to get a mobile phone contract. But it appears it is classed as part of your income! News to me.

I have just googled form E and what is included, and it does mention state benefits but only in what you get at the time of filling out the form. I think, as much as it pains me to say this, if I were you I'd apply using the required information the form asks for and see what happens.
If you win, you get the money which can help when you have one of the cluster headaches, which might have stopped you from being able to get something for dinner so you can order in food instead . Other things like that. And if you don't, we'll, he can't keep on about it and hopefully you can be free of him sooner.

Whats he said about his rental and income earned from it, and what about the marital home?

When assessing for eligibility, PIP assessors look for you being able to complete the activity

1. Reliably
2. To a good enough standard
3. Within reasonable timeframe
4. Safely.

So, for example if you can wash yourself but it takes you twice as long as it would take non-disabled person to complete the same activity, then you can't complete it within a reasonable timeframe. Or if you can stick a ready meal in the oven but you forget to turn it off or you balance is affected and you have to steady yourself as you cook/need to sit down, then the activity is not safe. PIP is much more nuanced than can/can't make a sandwich, in most cases as you can earn different number of points for being able to cook simple or complex meal, use microwave or oven and do something with and without assistive equipment and help from others. From experience, I find a lot of people learn to adapt. For example, they may feel dizzy when they put their shoes on so they start wearing sliders. And then they put on the form that they can dress independently but this is not the case. They simply stopped putting shoes on altogether.

PIP is not about being able to work. This new government want to reduce claims, and review existing claims. But, if you want to claim, then do it. They can only say no.

I’m not sure why this is so significant. The starting point for division of marital assets is 50:50. Is he arguing that you should get less than 50% and you feel you should get more?

If there are kids involved, he will be required to provide financial support at the minimum CMS rates.

I can understand your dilemma but it’s not clear about what he’s pushing for. A court can’t force you to increase your hours. Their job is to divide assets based on facts.

@StormingNorman that's really interesting thank you. Maybe I'm so used to adapting my every day life that I forget the difficulties that I have and how I cope with them.

Cooking wise, I would be extremely likely to forget a pan on the hob or something in the oven if I didn't set a timer. Not the oven timer as I won't hear this if I wander off- but a timer that I carry with me. If I forget to use the timer I will forget the food and burn it. But I probably remember 80/90 % of the time.

Is there a resource you can suggest that might help me view my difficulties more objectively?

Look at Migraine Buddy. It allows you to record what you were doing / eating, etc so you should be able to get an idea of your triggers

I know that ultimately a judge will decide if we can't agree. But at the previous hearing we were ordered to answer some questions that each of us had asked. If the answers are considered as inadequate then we can raise a schedule of deficiencies, and if this hasn't been resolved by the next hearing then these deficiencies are presented to the judge.

ExH asked me why I hadn't claimed PIP. I answered that I did not meet the criteria, and included details of this criteria. He has now raised a schedule of deficiencies saying this isn't an adequate answer because of I can't do a different job and earn more money I should get PIP. Hence the letters back and forth and my worry that both the solicitors and potentially the judge (as happened with another poster on the thread) have an inaccurate idea of what PIP is- and may view me not getting it as an indication that I am not affected by health conditions....