To think it’s cruel to bring police dogs into a a massive violent riot as was Southport last night? *edited by MNHQ

[Bullbreedbliss]

The tragedy at Southport has been horrific beyond description and touched us all. However I can’t help but think it was not only ineffective, but irresponsible and cruel to bring dogs into the scene that unfolded during last nights riots. The morning after and we are hearing that dogs have been injured from having bricks thrown in their direction, strangled, kicked and burnt. Bringing half a dozen dogs into a scene where hundreds of people are engaging in such extreme levels of violence and civil unrest was never going to achieve anything except traumatised and injured animals. A poor tactic employed by police at great cost to the animals that did not choose to be there.

I'm not sure why the OP is getting such a pasting. I would assume the police would only take the dogs into a situation where the benefits outweighed the risks - police dogs are generally much loved by their handlers and, additionally, a very expensive resource. So it probably was beneficial.

However, I think it's a perfectly valid question - to look at dogs in a riot and wonder why they were there. It doesn't mean you don't care about children being killed.

I wonder if some of the response is because it wasn't originally clear which dogs were being talked about.

Peak Mumsnet.

Its fine to care about the dogs OP and clearly you are not suggesting their welfare is all the matters or the priority. Its obviously a tangential discussion about the use of working animals in dangerous situations so I don't think you deserve the virtue being signalled in your direction! I'm in two minds. I hate to see the abuse of animals and animals used as tools and weapons. However, human life was at stake and clearly those with expertise in managing the situations deem the animals helpful in damage limitation. I don't know enough about it to know if there were viable alternatives to their use, so I'm taking the position of necessary evil.

Perhaps you need to rethink the purpose of starting this post.
Children were stabbed to death, and survivors scared for life… you are worried about dogs.
FFS. Your attitude “think of the dogs” is so misplaced it is unreal.

As a side note, it’s also the reason people can’t eat, drink or move in public places without dogs everywhere.

Every time I call for dogs to be banned, people say “ah, but what about police dogs”.

So when it’s time for them to step up, they better had - to justify their existence.

How do you train dogs to have bricks bouncing off them or to be burned?

Police dogs are used as a means to restore order because they are vocal, barky and people will usually feel intimidated by them and back off. It's just one part of a wider tactic to control crowds at riots. Horses are also used for crowd control to similar effect.

I agree OP, it was clear the animals were going to get into the firing line and be hurt. Sometimes I feel like we humans need to sort our own messes out without dragging in animals as well, trained or not.

You can't. But you'd hope the presence of an animal that might chase and bite you would deter that sort of behaviour and that is why the police use them. I agree it seems a bit pointless against hundreds of rioters but it's just a small part of crowd control. People don't usually tend to mess with something that might bite them if they get too close.

Exactly. I accept some of the work undertaken by trained police dogs to be dangerous but this is too much imo. Like lambs to slaughter comes to mind…

Also cannot believe the ‘othering’ taking place between working dogs and pet dogs in this thread. As if working dogs are going to enjoy being in a situation where bricks and fireworks are being thrown at them anymore than a pet dog.

I see the title of my thread has been edited, thankyou @MNHQ. Apologies for not being clear.

I feel like you’re being given a hard time on here when I thought the same. Obviously the bigger picture here is one that is absolutely horrendous, heartless, disgusting - there aren’t enough words to describe the tragic evil act that took place to cause these riots. However, I also feel compassion towards these animals, raised as workers being injured by mindless thugs.

This country scares me right now. Having watched footage from last night and seeing some people laughing and joking whilst throwing things, it was disgusting. We have this horrible act caused by a despicable human, then people who honestly by the looks of them were enjoying that they get to get their hatred out. I agree there should be protests about what’s happened, it’s horrendous, something needs to change, however last night was not it. The hatred in this country is worrying and it’s only going to get worse I fear.

This. Obviously not the biggest thing going on but doesn’t make it right.

That is the actual role of police dogs, and horses for that matter. If you have an objection to the police using animals in any circumstances then say so. Don't use the events of last night to shoe-horn yourself into a tragedy and make it about something else.

So many people have such one track, narrow minds, they can only care about and think of one concern at a time, so berate people who can and do care about the humans AND the dogs.

Says more about the people that can't do that than it does about the OP.

But how could anyone predict the amount of violence that erupted.
They needed rubber bullets and water cannons and no dogs but who’d have thought.

I agree it seems a bit pointless against hundreds of rioters but it's just a small part of crowd control.

This my thinking. It’s just so unjustified when it’s so ineffective and pointless.

Shock horror that people are capable of caring about more than one aspect of something or more than one thing in general! Who'd'a thunk it?!🙄

Do you have to justify your existence? Why should anybody or any animal for that matter, have to justify their existence to you?

I was thinking about these riots last night. Mum's need to go on the march. Loads of people were at that vigil, if an army of middle aged women had gone down there to protect the police (the very same police who had run to protect their children) I bet those rioters would have soon gone home.
The more I watch the world, the more I think mum's should rise up and put their young men back in their box. From all communities. White British, I'm fucking sick of it, those young men do not speak for me. And I bet plenty of Muslims mum's are also sick of their young men causing trouble. Not in my name! If I ever had any suspicions my son, or young men I knew, were involved in something like this, I'd be straight down there. For sure, I wouldn't be on TV playing the victim.

Well I agree with your post apart from the last sentence.

Do you really not care one iota about animal welfare? I find that actually a chilling statement.

I do care about animal welfare . But I do think, given that's what the police dogs are trained for, then of course the dogs had to be present to do their job. Whether or not the police should have dogs and horses in their service is a different issue. But it would be difficult to argue that eg sniffer dogs don't do an amazing job which would be almost impossible to find a substitute for.

As the situation is though at the moment the dogs used in the riots are trained for such situations and therefore had to be used.

But for you to say you don't care about the dogs welfare is extraordinary in my opinion.

Given budget cuts to public services over the last decade, if police dogs weren’t effective in riot situations they simply wouldn’t be kept. The cost of owning, caring, training, feeding and health costs of a police dog are not going to be continued if those dogs are not good at their jobs. I have dogs but those dogs had a job to do and they did it. Police dog handlers care for their dogs a lot and will be really affected that their dog has been injured in the line of duty. Other police officers will see the dogs equally as colleagues that are injured. There is a large amount of distrust around the police (not for this but other incidents) and further weaponising the police is not a good thing imo, I don’t think that’s a way to go about building trust with the public again so they need to keep using the tools they have that are effective.

Is it awful that some low lives hurt these trained animals just because they could? Yes.
Is it awful these same low lives also injured police officers who are trying to keep a heartbroken community safe, just because they could. Yes.
Is it awful that some low life attacked 2 women and little girls, just because they could? Yes.
Is it shocking that male violence begets male violence to people who have done fuck all to deserve this violence and hatred? That with the distrust in the police and the sheer violence of these men, that we have no means to stop these attacks, to stop the hatred? Yes.
Is it a wise idea to take a tool away from the police when more and more and more of these events are happening, even if some trained dogs get hurt? No.

I think there are some people poised over their key boards ready to attack anyone not responding to the situation as well as they believe themselves to be. Ridiculous really as everyone here is on the same side. Maybe it's because the people who deserve their wrath are out of reach so they're looking for another outlet.

This. It just suggests someone with a very odd interpretation of the hierarchy of concerns in a traumatic incident.

Its a bit like someone turning up to speak to forensics police in the aftermath of a domestic violence fuelled murder and expressing concern that the cutlery was broken.

Obviously dogs’ welfare is a concern but thinking this trumps the other concerns is pretty small minded.

Do be fair the difference is that working dogs are desensitised through rigorous training to be less responsive to objects being thrown and loud noises than a domestic pet dog would be able to cope with. That's not othering. It's fact.

So yo don't care if someone throws a brick at a dog? I know there is a bigger picture but it's still cruel. I care and I blame the person throwing the brick.