Nursery issue

[SammySquirrell12]

I had a bit of an issue at my son's nursery yesterday that keeps playing on my mind. Before I mention anything at pick up this evening, I wanted to speak to other parents who would be able to offer me their thoughts/opinions on what happened.

So, my little boy has been going to his nursery for two years and is very settled and happy there. I normally find the nursery great, with one or two of the staff that work there a little below average, but the rest of them are so wonderful you don't really mind that.

One of the women who work there (but not in my son's toddlers room) isn't great. Whenever I see her I find her a bit rude and very different in energy to the other members of staff. Nothing terrible, just never says hello when I say hello to her, has ignored my son when he has said hello and goodbye to her, very abrupt tone - that sort of thing. As I say, none of it an issue, but it is noticeable.

On occasion, when I have picked my son up on a warm day, he will be in the garden with the other kids from all the different age groups. This woman works in the baby room, and her daughter has also been there in the garden at pick up time. I would say her daughter is maybe around 14 years old. She may be slightly older, but I would say definitely no older than 16 (and I would be shocked if she even was 16).

I don't know what she is doing there, but it's been often enough for it to be noticeable and for me to have clocked who she is and her to know my son's name etc. I've not loved her energy, as I've seen her shout across the garden to kids (my son included) in a bit of an intimidating way. Nothing that she said, but she is talking to very very small children and the way she was talking didn't seem appropriate, but again - something I noticed and thought was a bit off, but whatever.

Yesterday, she was in the garden again when I went to pick my son up. I was with him as he was messing around with a toy, and she came over, stood really close to him and said "Can I have a cuddle?". It's hard to explain here, but she didn't bend down or soften her voice at all, and was standing so close to him that I can imagine it would've been intimidating. Basically, someone much much taller than you, standing about 6 inches away from you asking in quite a harsh tone for a cuddle. He looked a little hesitant, but gave her a cuddle. She then said "did you tell your mummy you wet yourself today?".

Now, this is what has annoyed me. He is potty training at the moment and has been having a bit of a hard time with accidents when he is at nursery. we are keeping everything positive in speech to him around this and is very much celebrating when he does manage it and "not to worry, we'll try next time" when he doesn't. Her tone and what she said is the complete antithesis of what I am trying to do with his potty training (it sounded quite shaming), but also why on earth is another kid getting involved in this? She doesn't work there, should not be reporting to me about anything to do with my child, and also shouldn't be speaking to him to get him to tell me.

I immediately cut in, moved him to one side of me and said "we know all about them, thanks" and moved the conversation on.

I get the feeling she is there as the mother doesn't have childcare for her kid, but regardless, she isn't trained or employed by the nursery, and shouldn't be reporting to parents in any way what their kid has been up to - let alone like that.

Any thoughts on the legality or proper processes around having untrained teenagers in a nursery setting?

Thank you!!

Speak to the manager

First about the kid and then about her mother

If the teenager is still there by the end of the week i would be contacting Ofsted

Definitely not appropriate. Speak to the manager tomorrow. Is she being supervised all the time that she is with the children if she clearly doesn't work there? It's not on and I'd not be happy with this at all.

I would definitely speak to the manager first and find out why someone who doesn’t work at the nursery knows confidential/sensitive information about your child. If that gets you nowhere then I would definitely be contacting Ofsted.

There are so many potential safeguarding risks here it seems very stupid of the nursery.

Do you think I'm right in thinking it's unacceptable for the kid to be there? I mean, we all have childcare issues from time to time, but I also expect to send my child to a nursery full of trained professionals - and adults! She isn't looking after the kids, but clearly is getting too involved.

That's the thing - I only saw this for a moment in the garden when I was picking up, so I have no idea what is going on during the day - but that's the point isn't it? You have to trust who you leave your child with.

She isn't involved in my son's class (as her mother looks after another group), so I have no idea how involved she is at all, but it seems like madness to me. I wasn't sure if I was just being a bit over the top, so thank you for making me not feel mad!

A 14 year old can stay home alone. A childcare issue doesn't explain her being there. It's inappropriate for her to be speaking to you about your child in this way or to be asking for cuddles. The mother sounds pretty awful too. I would complain about both of them.

A teenager on work experience would be acceptable to be there but not the behaviour you describe

If she’s over 14 she should have safeguarding training, if she’s not then she shouldn’t be there.

This

YANBU at all.

Yes, the cuddles thing pissed me off as well. My kid LOVES a lot of the staff there and often just throws himself at them for cuddles, but I never see them ask him, nor loom over him in an intimidating way!

I mean, she is obviously a kid herself, so my issue is with her mother and the nursery, but that's the point - if someone is there that does not know what is appropriate or not, then why on earth are they there in a secure setting around very very small children?

Asking for a cuddle may be a breach of safeguarding. A child should be free to choose who to cuddle, not be cajoled into it. In addition, there is the very clear breach of confidentiality. The mother shouldn’t have told anyone who isn’t a staff member or the appropriate parent about your son’s toilet training.

You’re absolutely correct to ask why this 14 year old is at the nursery? She shouldn’t be interacting with the children at all.

Is she maybe doing work experience?

My niece is doing this at the moment. She is 15, and was a school refuser. She's currently doing an access course where she attends a centre working towards a child care qualification.

She goes to the centre where she does the work she would be doing on a college course, and then part of it is a few afternoons a week in a nursery

Ex-teacher here (primary school, not nursery setting) - I doubt this child has a DBS check and as a teacher, under no circumstances whatsoever would I have left my class alone with a visitor that wasn’t DBS checked, or with anyone who wasn’t an employee of the school without the children being in my line of sight. It’s usually the case that anyone visiting needs to be wearing a visitor badge and be accompanied.

If she’s there on some kind of placement/work experience, I’d say she still needs a supervisor around and should have received a talk about how to behave around children. I’d talk to the manager about why she’s there, mention her tone, behaviour and your concerns about her negativity around the wetting situation.

Additionally, it’s entirely inappropriate that she would be the one to raise the wetting issue with you. That should not have happened.

Thank you. Just to clarify, there was an adult present - one in the garden (who at this point was speaking to another parent) and her mother was just inside the door to the garden speaking to another parent. So she wasn't alone with the children per se. Do you think that makes a difference in your professional opinion?

Certainly speak to the manager about the teen being there, ask her role, training and checks done etc. Why this person has been involved in your son's toileting and asking for cuddles.

However describing staff as 'below average' and 'not great' is a bit off and comes across quite judgemental.

Another ex teacher here.

If she has not been left alone with the children and is always supervised then that is a small saving grace as “visitors” must be supervised at all times.

The sharing of information is a breach though and one I wouldn’t be very happy about. From your first post, you can see it’s already resulted in someone untrained in childcare potentially causing distress for the child (by mentioning the toileting accident).

Not appropriate at all. You pay for your child to be looked after by trained professionals, not their bratty offsping. Report to management for sure.

Thank you. Yes, that is a good point. I have no idea if it upset him or not, as he is too little to immediately know if something like that effected him in any way. He may have felt shame around the wetting incident - I won't know. Likewise, he has had so much positivity around his potty training, he may not have even noticed it, but he - or any of the other children, shouldn't be in a position that this could possibly happen by someone untrained.

Thank you. I'm not sure it's judgemental to be honest. I've had a good few experiences when I've seen this woman be quite rude, or when my son has (on a few occasions) gone to say goodbye to her and she has ignored him...despite not talking to anyone else or doing anything else. It's resulted in him looking crestfallen and saying "she didn't hear me" a few times. I would describe that as 'not great' as if you're working with children and in your place of work, I would expect you to be friendly to a small child trying to talk to you.

This is also against other members of staff - many of which don't or have never worked with my son who are always friendly and kind when you see them around the nursery.

@SammySquirrell12 Visitors (certainly ones who aren’t DBS checked) shouldn’t be left alone with the kids. If there’s an employee close by/in the playground with them, that’s usually acceptable but would depend on the nursery’s own policies. Usually at least 2 adults would be needed outside. Inside, one adult would be fine. In the schools in which I’ve taught, the situation you described would have been ok. I’m unsure if the rules are any different for nurseries, but if anything they’d likely be stricter.

It would be absolutely fine for you to ask for the reason the girl is there and for assurance that that she’s not alone with the children.

How the hell does she know about the wetting situation?

It's nothing to do with her and shouldn't have been discussed with her!

My 16 year old niece had been offered a placement at a nursery where she would be studying alongside actually working in the nursery. You say she could potentially be 16 so it could be a case of similar and that she is an employee.

You also seem to have a personal issue with her mother and may be extrapolating this to the girl.

She may have been present when the wetting incident occurred. And has not yet learnt, as she is young, that her approach could be seen as negative.

However the asking for a hug is against safeguarding. Children should iniate hugs themselves. It could be that, as a child herself, she hasn't had this emphasised to her or doesn't think it applies to her. She may have been unaware she appeared to be "looming up and demanding a hug".

By all means, because of this Safeguarding concern especially, speak to the Nursery Manager. But try and stick to the facts rather than bring personal feelings in. So mention that it was inappropriate to ask for a hug and that her question about the wetting situation was making it a negative experience and your concern over someone so young being around but unsupervised but don't mention your interpretation of them being rude. It might make you look like you have some personal grudge.

The nursery should have explained to you in what capacity she is there, eg visitor, work experience, student placement. What happens if there is an accident - is she counted as staff for insurance or a visitor,?

Also you're allowed to have any judgement you like about anyone, particularly if they are looking after your children in your absence.

"with one or two of the staff that work there a little below average, but the rest of them are so wonderful you don't really mind that."

What on earth does that mean? Below average intelligence? Looks? Juggling skills?
What a nasty, judgy statement and nothing to do with your actual point

By all means ask in what capacity she is there, but the assumption it's not sanctioned, may not be true- my sister had her daughter doing work experience in a nursery setting as she is 15 and will be applying to go into early years education. So if your objection is her presence, then you may not have a complaint.

I would approach it from this angle.

Say you've noticed this person is getting involved in your child's care, asking for hugs, doing "handovers" and you want to check if this is a work experience placement or if they are employed.