If you’re a horse person, can I ask you about the Olympics?

[GlassesCaseMonster]

I know nothing about horses, but found the earlier thread about Charlotte Dujardin fascinating, in terms of someone in this field being apparently so abusive to her horses. I’d clearly been very naive believing that a sport where you work in such closeness with an animal would mean that you’d be caring and empathetic to that animal (I know, very naive).

But if you do work with or keep horses, how do you feel about the Olympic horse events? Is it beautiful and well-managed, or is it brutal and should be abolished? Does it just need changing but keeping? Does no one want to talk about it IRL because it would rock the boat?

I’m looking at many of the events so differently, but would like to hear some informed opinions, please.

I worked with horses for a long time, and believe you me, the horse fraternity is as horrified as you are at what that video showed her doing.

Agreed. The video was a terrible shock. I cannot imagine any rider in any of the disciplines behaving that way.

I’m a horse person. I have two and have been around horses most of my life. I, personally, don’t follow competitive riding. I used to as a child, and would be glued to watching the Olympic equestrian events.

But as an adult I’ve been able to see it for what it is. It’s much more about jostling between people and power than love for horses for too many. I thought maybe I’d have an interest in getting back into showjumping. I went to watch a local event and it really put me off. Lots of yanking horses around, hitting them when they refused a jump, very strong bits but little awareness of actual communication with the horse.

That’s not to cast everyone with the same brush, definitely not. But for too many, it’s about winning and not about the horses. Like I said, I’m not in the competition world anymore, but my dressage friends said there was nothing shocking to them about the video that came out. I mean, they found it shocking because it’s obviously awful to see an animal hit, but it was mild compared to what they’d seen done by others.

Thanks @leeverarch . I’d expect this, but what about general conditions of, say, dressage? I read on the other thread that many riders are horrified about how rigidly controlled horses are now in current dressage standards, compared to the 80s (I think). Is this just a niche opinion, or do most riders feel this way?

That’s really interesting, thanks @mindutopia . Do you think eventing will remain at the Olympics for the foreseeable because it’s popular globally? Or will the prioritising of winning over horse-care mean it’s soon relegated to the past?

I feel differently about the different equestrian sports, but this could just be because of my personal experience. In the case of dressage, I suspect Charlotte is not the only one to treat their horses like this. I was horrified by the footage as she seems to have such a beautiful relationship with her horses when you see her on board, but clearly this was not a one off, this is obviously the way she trains her/other horses regularly. I feel that top level dressage has perhaps gone too far in the moves they expect from the horses, it has become unnatural and forced, which has encouraged poor treatment of horses as they are forced to do things that they are not all capable of (depending on breed/conformation etc). The atmosphere around pure dressage has always felt very competitive and unpleasant in many ways.

However, I feel quite differently about eventing, which is where most of my experiences come from. The atmosphere at an event feels different to dressage, I've always felt it was more welcoming and encouraging, with more of a 'team spirit'. To get an event horse to perform at its very best across three different disciplines take a special sort of rider, and from what I have seen (and I have worked on a yard belonging to someone who trains a current Olympic team), the vast majority of eventers appreciate this and aim to develop a loving and trusting relationship with their horses. There will always be some that are quick to lose their temper/be rough with their horses, but I like to think they are in the minority and that rarely leads to success.

I think, like human athletes, horses have developed along with the science and technology and training methods rapidly over the last 50 or 60 years. I think we have probably gone as far as we can go, apart from the very odd fluke of nature, for either trainability or physical prowess.

That should be fine. However 'they' still want to see records broken, improvements and standards being raised.

This leaves equestrians in the position of always pushing, and unfortunately it's horses they are pushing that don't have a voice.

I do think absolutely that the Olympics should have equestrian events. But the expectations of the audience and judges needs to be realistic.

@HighlandCowbag Yes, that’s my feeling too, but as someone with almost no insider knowledge, I didn’t know how unreasonable I was being.

@theugly5 Im glad there are still those more positive events, of course there must be very many people for whom the welfare of their horse is the greatest priority.

I’m just watching Lyle (USA) at the dressage right now, and her horse’s head is so tight to its body, held so hard and looks so uncomfortable, but is that just because I don’t know horses?

I don’t like the way dressage horses are kept, they are often kept in stables with only a short time out to work each day and I just don’t think that’s ok. Horse racing gets a lot of flak (sometimes justifiably so) but at least race horses have off season and fairly short careers and they do get them to ‘be a horse’…dressage horses don’t.

There's lots of stuff about high level sports that's pretty uncomfortable.

I don't know about people at this level but my dad was a show jumper and we had horses for a long time (not anymore though) and no one in our family would have treated any animal badly. My feelings for our horses were the same as for any animal we've had. Both of ours were lovely natured though, not difficult horses at all.

Used to ride one that was a horrible bastard though, I don't know what it would have been like owning one like that, but maybe that was a bad owner?

@theugly5 I feel exactly the same. I competed when much younger but don't anymore and never witnessed anyone bashing their horses about in eventing. The riders mostly seem like good people - I know their are rumours about some of them (not in current British team), but dressage from afar always seemed quite unpleasant to me and looks so incredibly unnatural for the horses. What they are asked to do in eventing seems more like what horses naturally love to do!

I had a friend who was a working pupil for a British show jumper who went on to run a yard but not compete at a high level and she had some real horror stories.

I'm just a happy hacker now really. I feel totally ambivalent about the whole thing.

I had horses and am still in contact with our local horsey community. We are all horrified by Charlotte but not totally surprised that abuse in the sport could occur. There has been too many notable examples (from elite competitors too) of cruelty and abuse of horses at top levels, particularly in dressage, for it to be a coincidence and the questions from those, horsey or not, re morality is justified. I've found it difficult to watch any of the equestrian sports this year (and in the last few years too). I hope the sport regulators conduct a wider review on animal welfare standards and practices at the very least and do more to penalise those who are found guilty of not meeting those standards.

Theres abuse at many levels, so many. Harsh bits, training on pulling heads down tight, whipping, spurs, ridiculous dancing in dressage. I dont doubt that many are horrified by the abusive video but there's plenty of abuse that goes on day to day. Horses , at least in the professional worlds, are treated as a commodity and moved on when they no longer serve their purpose. Look at racehorses. Trained young, raced u til they can race no more and then shot or shipped overseas.

I grew up with horses, I love them. They are such beautiful noble creatures. As a kid I followed various equestrian sports and competed in gymkanas. As an adult I view horse sport as cruel and only done for human’s enjoyment. I especially hate horse racing, where horses die.

Indeed. My partner commented that dressage is like a circus act - and we banned the use of animals in circuses years ago in the UK.

Well. I'll say what I'll say from a horsey discipline not 100% removed from dressage but not dressage. And I'm not in it any more. I'm not remotely surprised at the video. I've seen similar.

I would have have been a teenager so it would have been difficult for me to say "no" to what what going on at the time.

However. I Absolutely wouldn't have stood for any abuse of my pony, whomever was doing it. Olympic medal winning or whatever.

Having said that, horses are big animals. Sometimes they need a smack.🤔

We have four horses at home and my daughter is a professional rider. She is ambitious and driven but that makes her work herself harder, not the horses - the three in work (one’s just a baby) have a varied lifestyle according to their needs, lots of hacking, not too much schooling - they’re all keen and happy and load themselves onto the lorry when they go out. She’s worked at three pro yards and the rider at the first would sometimes lose her temper - but there were no worrying moments at either of the other two. The rider at the first yard has since had a yellow warning from the FEI.

She’s told me the CDJ furore has helped crystallise things for her - she will not push her horses to do things they’re not ready for/don’t want to do and if that means she has less competitive success then so be it.

There is currently a massive thread on the Horse & Hound forum discussing the future of dressage. Nearly everyone on it agrees change is needed, and that it needs to come from the governing body (FEI). Suggestions include:

-stewarding of warm-ups
-complete revision of marking ie deductions for signs of stress, higher marks for correct work rather than "flashy"
-dropping exaggerated movements like the piaffe
-snaffle only (the simplest type of bit in the horse's mouth)
-moving away from Warmbloods to breeds that collect more naturally, but don't have such large scope (ie Iberians)

I would be surprised if Equestrian is still in the Olympics in 2032.

A friend of mine is a very experienced equestrian type and I was asking her about this.

Her view is that elite level dressage - a bit like dog-showing - is at a point where winning means more and more exaggeration of the horses' natural gait and posture, and that competitive riders and trainers are becoming increasingly unscrupulous in the way they try achieve that. She was showing me some pictures of dressage horses competing forty or fifty years ago, in comparison to today, and there was a really big difference in the angle of the horses' heads and necks. The idea is that the horse's head is slightly dropped and relaxed, not lifted up high - but over the years that's turned into a really unnatural position where the horse's head is pulled down really tightly, almost parallel with the neck, which needs tight reins and special bridles and bits to give strong control. She was also saying that in her opinion, horses that are being ridden gently in the show ring are not necessarily being ridden that way in training - she was saying that she'd witnessed horses with their heads pulled down so far and tight that their tongues were turning blue. She's also seen scars on horses' sides where they've been cut by riders' spurs (and apparently Dujardin was penalised for drawing blood a few years ago).

However, she did stress that this isn't necessarily the norm - just that it is definitely a problem. She was really horrified by the Dujardin video.

It reminds me a lot of dog showing. When you look at pictures of most breeds from dog shows in the 1930s-50s, they look very different from the same show-winning breeds today. Their features and body shapes have been exaggerated, to the detriment of the dog's health, and they've been groomed and clipped in more and more extreme ways so the natural shape of the dog is barely visible any more.

Look at the dressage mark for the eventing team: in a snaffle!

I think a lot of people said “shocked but not surprised”. There’s an awful lot of casual cruelty that goes on in the horse world. I don’t think any of the horse sports are immune to it - harsh riding can get you to the top. Someone mentioned eventing - one of the worlds top riders (Oliver townend) is well known for being hard on his horses, he will push a tired horse beyond its limits if it means he will win, and he very rarely seems to have any genuine feelings towards his horses - they’re like vehicles for him to get round. He actually had to be pulled up at event because his horse was exhausted - a good rider would have pulled it up himself. Riding a tired horse over cross country fences could kill it if it falls.

I’ve ridden on and off for 20 years and I’ve never made a horse bleed from its mouth (no I’m not riding at Olympic level). An Italian rider has already been eliminated for the horse having blood in its mouth and Andrew Gould and Lottie Fry have previously been eliminated from other bets for the same thing.

The whole thing is rotten - you won’t see a happy, relaxed horse performing at any of these events

I have horses & I am definitely against equestrian sports in the Olympics & in any competition where there is prize money at stake.

For anyone interested in the case against horses in the Olympics I would recommend reading
'I cant watch anymore' by Julie Taylor

Bit of both.

Dressage at all levels has issues, but the bloody Dutch have a terrible reputation for welfare so whilst I deplore the CDJ video it is completely malicious in its release timing and has bugger all to do with welfare concerns.

All aspects of equestrianism has good and bad practice-no different to the doping/cheating in other sports.

True dressage is beautiful and uses the natural movement of the horse in harmony with the rider. Modern dressage is often the opposite.
But show jumping has poor practice and harsh riding, I personally find the showing world deplorable and I am
more at peace with the eventers who have fewer accusations but I’m sure abuse happens there too.

My horse died last week and whilst I’m bereft I’m also thinking seriously about if want to carry on. I breathe horses but at a competitive level there’s a lot to dislike. I probably won’t compete again.

Ironically the horses like hunting best- even though that’s a mumsnet hate.

I’ve actually been really quite shocked by the reaction to the video in my local horsey groups. I expected people to be horrified and pretty condemning.

However, it’s been quite divided - some people claiming the video has been tampered with (er how?), really nasty stuff about the person who made it public, claims that she was set up, that it’s just a ‘snap shot’, that the whip wasn’t making contact with the horse, etc.

I guess it’s been a useful tool to ensure I don’t ever use the services of any of these people who seem to think this behaviour is acceptable. We won’t be using DD’s riding instructor again as she seems to think this kind of behaviour is acceptable.

I from talking to other horsey friends, they’re more shocked with CDJ, not that it happens within the sport, as she’d set herself up as above the rest, that she didn’t use harsh methods and her horses had turn out and were hacked regularly, but it turns out she’s just the same.

I grew up around horses, and DD has a pony but I lost my old girl last year, but neither of us have ever been into competing.

The high level equestrian sports make me uncomfortable and there needs to be some kind of review or reform, but what, I have no clue.

There have always been top level riders with dubious training methods - anyone else remember the showjumping Smith family in the 70s and 80s - always reported as being harsh to their horses. The Germans were always known for their iron handed training methods and more recently we've had the Rollkur horror stories.
In the eventing showjumping yesterday what horrified me most was the way riders from less experienced nations were yanking their horses mouths to steer or slow down - so awful compared to the excellent riding from top riders you hear of at Badminton and Burghley.