If you’re a horse person, can I ask you about the Olympics?

[GlassesCaseMonster]

I know nothing about horses, but found the earlier thread about Charlotte Dujardin fascinating, in terms of someone in this field being apparently so abusive to her horses. I’d clearly been very naive believing that a sport where you work in such closeness with an animal would mean that you’d be caring and empathetic to that animal (I know, very naive).

But if you do work with or keep horses, how do you feel about the Olympic horse events? Is it beautiful and well-managed, or is it brutal and should be abolished? Does it just need changing but keeping? Does no one want to talk about it IRL because it would rock the boat?

I’m looking at many of the events so differently, but would like to hear some informed opinions, please.

I'm horsey, but think that some people that compete, (particularly when money is involved) loose sight of anything but winning. Anything that includes animals that makes money is generally a no for me; the animals best interests never seem to be at heart.

I think snaffle only would be a very good start.

I’ve had horses all my life, near enough, and have competed in a number of disciplines at a reasonable level (never remotely elite though!).

I’m increasingly uncomfortable with the way horses are used in sport and how they’re pushed into doing things that are ultimately to their detriment. Dressage should be about making the horse stronger and more balanced, but the extremes of movement displayed at elite level break horses down - that’s a training issue and a breeding issue, with a lot of wastage on the way to the top.

Whilst I find the CDJ video abhorrent, I don’t think she’s wildly unusual in the competitive horse world, at elite level and all the way down - whether it’s hitting horses with lunge whips, sawing at their mouths, overuse of draw reins / spurs / harsh bits, or just bullying them with unrelenting force when they’re not really capable of the task their rider hopes to accomplish. I’ve seen all that at the lowest levels, and it’s often considered normal.

We know so much more about horse behaviour, diagnostics, pain ethograms, now. I increasingly look back on what I’ve seen (and done myself with horses) and question whether we can continue in this vein.

I don’t want horse sports to die - I think it’s possible to make them ethical, within boundaries (I.e. not elite sport / extremes / big money scenarios), and I’d like to see that happen. I doubt I will though.

I watched the cross country and kept wondering if the horses enjoyed what they were doing. I'm a non horsey person

Race horses have short careers because they are put into hard training as babies and consequently are broken down wrecks at a very young age.
They certainly dont lead natural horse lives. They are inbred, unsound and full of ulcers.

I did low level cross country and team chasing, my girl was enthusiastic about this activity. It is very possible for horses to enjoy their work. The Olympics is obviously right at the pinnacle of the sport, but given what has been seen, not with just Charlotte, it does make you wonder if those horses (the ones where abuse is not evident) have been trained/pushed beyond any enjoyment they could get out of it.

I think they can.

My old girl hated anything that involved her feet leaving the ground, but my DD’s pony is very enthusiastic with cross country.

Her body language is very forward, she’s keen and eager to go.

I think horses do enjoy having a job. When I retired my oldie, she completely changed character, so we started going on a short (very slow) hack once a week, doing some Liberty type bits (I taught her to bow and stuff like that) and she was back to her old full of beans self.

I’ve always had horses and competed in low level eventing for many years. I can remember from my childhood adults at different yards and at competitions being abusive to their horses, in a way that absolutely would not be tolerated at all these days.

I must admit to being very saddened and disappointed in CDJ but not completely surprised. Elite horses and top level competing is very expensive, so it can become a case of doing what it takes to succeed rather than only being able to do so much before accepting winning isn’t going to happen.

I also think that CDJ routinely trains horses with an unacceptable use of a whip as she didn’t look to me to have lost her temper in the video; it just looked like a normal lesson. I also think many others treat their horses in a similar way or worse. It’s cruelty and they should all be prosecuted.

There’s a big difference between a pony enjoying a canter around a 90cm PC course, or even a horse cruising around a novice, and being shipped internationally to gallop for >10 minutes around a mentally and physically taxing course with very technical elements (and a not insignificant risk of death).

I absolutely believe horses can enjoy the former - if they’re fit, sound, cared for well and ridden competently. I’m not convinced the latter is ethical.

From my own experience, I’ve had horses where all I’ve had to do for cross country is sit, steer, and make sure they don’t go too fast to put themselves at risk of falling.

@ceecee32 two of my daughter’s horses absolutely love going XC - you can tell by their body language (happy ears all the way round) and general enthusiasm. The oldest one is a bit more worried about it so he doesn’t go XC anymore.

I've ridden for a few decades now and worked in various yards including for an Olympic eventer, hunter yard, dressage trainer and PtP trainer. Generally the day to day care of the horses was good with appropriate feeding, turnout, shoeing etc. But have sadly seen and heard of cruel practices including doping. People lose their temper and take it out on the horse. They use harsh 'training aids' to get a quick result. Inappropriate us of medications to mask lameness or control 'problem behaviour'. The treatment of people can also be abhorrent - CD's video I think reveals some of the bullying young riders and grooms can experience. These are systemic issues but I don't think a ban on horse sport is the solution. The bad does not nullify the good. Reform not abolition is the way forward.

In regard to dressage specifically, I agree with the previous poster who noted problems with warmblood breeding. Baroque breeds who have more natural aptitude for collected work have been consistently undermarked and sidelined. I'm not sure if it is realistic to expect huge extended paces without compromising correctness. Judging must prioritise relaxation, harmony and correctness. More emphasis on the rider's seat and hands.I agree that some of the horses looked uncomfortable and even lame in today's dressage session.

I ride horses and everyone I know who does is appalled by this woman. I’ve never known this to be the practice in professional sport. the horses that do these professional sports- and this might sound odd - as in how would you know you can’t ask a horse- but many thrive off it, love the sport. Some horses can get very bored and just taking them for a walk they will actually start acting up and being naughty for the owner after a few months as they are not being stimulated enough. Some horses absolutely love the race- which is why I would never buy a thoroughbred as they have no brakes!!!

every horse is different really. You can tell in their body language. So a horse that is hard to stop is most likely very much enjoying racing! I’m not sure if you’ve ever seen it but sometimes horses will carry on racing round a track even if the jockey has come off. Then there are horses that love ménage work- the thinking horses( clever ones) and will do whatever you ask but as soon as you want to go on a hack will have legs like stone as they think it’s dull. The horse I ride at the moment- I have to be careful whenever we go into an open field as she thinks this is the best thing ever and wants to gallop off into the sunset whereas I’d like to take it a little slower! I once had a horse that hated hacking so much she refused to move after a certain point on a bridleway everytime- we had to sell her in the end, she then became a rather successful show jumper!- the new owners said she was a natural which made me confused!- but clearly she found her passion.

I have kept horses for the past 20 years, and stable on a large yard made up of a mixture of amateur and professional riders. I myself compete at what is considered a high level eventing - 4 star. So I feel I can offer an informed opinion.

Charlotte’s behaviour is indeed shocking. I don’t think she just shocked the general public though she also shocked and saddened all the people involved with horses who looked up to her including myself.

Charlotte is not a one off in this industry, and I can’t say I am completely surprised that something like this has happened although I am surprised it is Charlotte. I have heard more than I have seen riders reportedly using outdated, cruel methods to get what they believe is the best out of their horse, and I think it’s much more to do with trying to get to the top too soon or staying at the top of our sport.

However, for every Charlotte there is Abi Lyle, or Olivia Towers whose methods and teaching is exactly the opposite of what we have seen displayed by that horrendous video. The horses are happy. Their methods are kind. They are genuine caring riders who only want the best for their horses and do a marvellous job of displaying their love and partnership with the horses that they ride.

The Olympic horse events done right, can show the general public what amazing, adaptable, kind, capable, giving creatures they are. That is the key really .

The different disciplines need to change in order to keep equestrian sports at the Olympics. for instance, I believe that like in Tokyo with this heatwave in France (I’ve been there in the last few days) the horses should be competed later in the day as heat affects them just as it does us. There are many other recommendations I would make but I feel I’ve already said enough.

Someone mentioned eventing - one of the worlds top riders (Oliver townend) is well known for being hard on his horses, he will push a tired horse beyond its limits if it means he will win, and he very rarely seems to have any genuine feelings towards his horses - they’re like vehicles for him to get round. He actually had to be pulled up at event because his horse was exhausted - a good rider would have pulled it up himself. Riding a tired horse over cross country fences could kill it if it falls

This was kind of what I was referring to. I shouldn't have said it's a rumour - it's fact!

I totally agree with those saying that horses can clearly be treated as commodities in sport. I remember watching a documentary a while about showjumpers in the US in the 80s/90s having horses killed as part of insurance fraud!

I just really want to believe that lots of these riders do right by their horses and get results in the right way. The suggestions above for dressage changes sound Excellent.

Thank you, everyone, so much fascinating information and experience here. Hopefully the CDJs of the world will lessen with positive rule changes for the horses.

The different disciplines need to change in order to keep equestrian sports at the Olympics. for instance, I believe that like in Tokyo with this heatwave in France (I’ve been there in the last few days) the horses should be competed later in the day as heat affects them just as it does us. There are many other recommendations I would make but I feel I’ve already said enough.

@Diamondglintsonsnow I'm really interested in what else you would recommend!

@Diamondglintsonsnow beautifully put.

For what it’s worth, I have worked for a 5* event rider and his horses are cared for beautifully. They loved their jobs and if they didn’t, they were moved on to more suitable homes and their care was second to none. Plenty of down time to be horses and treated as such.

I also walked out from another job because I didn’t agree with how the horses were kept (extremely limited turnout).

There are some despicable people in the horse industry, as in any industry, and changes need to be made. I don’t know how to change things that happen behind closed doors but certainly a change in judging at the higher dressage levels to reward relaxation over extravagant movement would be a start.

I think eventing is making good progress. Ground jurys appear to be pulling up/penalising riders more frequently, I’ve noticed a significant reduction in horse falls over the past year or two due to the safety measures and changes in course design.

I hope competition continues at Olympic level but changes need to be made. In other countries; off the top of my head, is it Switzerland, it is law that horses must have access to turnout. I would strongly support something like that being put in place in the UK and similar.

I just mean that horse racing seems to take all the heat but dressage etc doesn’t and i don’t really understand why when dressage is just as bad in its own way. I wasn’t defending racing, but we have a number of ex racers on my livery yard who are happy and healthy and living as horses. Something dressage ponies do not get, is all I was saying.

I don't know the ins and outs of this specific situation but I lay odds others use similar tactics but haven't been caught. The footage wasn't recent I read.

I agree. That wasn’t a one off/loss of temper/over reaction situation, it was just another day in her life and that is what’s most disappointing.

I think a LOT of shit goes on behind the scenes.

If someone had whipped my horse the way CDJ did I would have lost my mind but I’ve seen so many other riders since then say it wasn’t that bad, they’ve seen worse etc.

It shouldn’t be this way - equestrianism should be a partnership based on mutual trust and respect, and for people whose horses are their beloved pets I believe it is usually that way. The problem is when huge amounts of money and glory are at stake, and people sacrifice horse welfare for the sake of attaining those things. It’s not acceptable.

I think the CDJ incident should prompt further enquiry from governing bodies into how widespread the abuse of horses is, because I wouldn’t be surprised at all if it was an endemic issue.

Absolutely this.

I also want to see dressage judges marking down movements where the horses look tense and overbent. I think that would put a stop to the type of training methods where a horse is rushed and pushed past what it's comfortable doing. I appreciate that the competition atmosphere can make some of the hotter horses tense in itself, but imo that's all part of selecting top level horses. If it mattered in the scores then it would be taken into account when buying and producing these horses. Perhaps the dominance of the flashy legged warmblood needs to be over.

I think this whole episode has demonstrated the hypocrisy of those who take exception to racing. I've worked in both racing and dressage yards - tbh working on the gallops in a string of other horses comes much more naturally. Ulcers, stereotypical behaviours and recurring injury happen in the sport horse world, it certainly isn't exclusive to racehorses. Inbreeding is also a big problem and compounded by poor regulation and predominance of AI which is not the case for TBs (live cover only). Warmbloods of course have Fragile Foal Syndrome to contend with.

TBs represent the biggest single breed we produce in the UK and Ireland. So the ' wastage' issue is most acute within the thoroughbred sector. It is the opposite in Germany and NL where they breed sports horses on a large scale. These are issues with commercial breeding generally - it is not breed/sector specific. Practices like linebreeding and allowing a narrow group of stallions to become prepotent become an inevitability.

Racehorses have shorter careers because they reach peak performance earlier. But it isn't unusual to see handicappers on the flat still going at 7+. Chasers typically retire around 11/12 and hurdlers 8/9 barring injury. Some flat horses start racing at 2 but it isn't a given. People balk at this but it is a very different scenario to the Spanish riding school horse who only starts work under saddle at 4. One of the big problems with the sport horse world is the ' young horse' class circuit. Championships for 3,4,5 + 6 y os incentivises rushed production without giving the horse time to mature. The work involves tight turns in small arenas whilst carrying heavier riders in a full seat. At least at a breeze up ( which certainly has its issues) the horse is going in a straight line under a comparatively light rider. How many of these young horse champions actually win at top level in the end?

So I would say all in all the same problems crop up. The discipline doesn't really matter. Where there is a perverse incentive to compromise horse welfare someone will take advantage of it.