Boys are innovators. Girls are compliant. Views?

[WhoTheFriggIsAlice]

I have 2 sons (primary school aged) who are being particularly crazy this summer holidays.

One of my son's was trying to dismantle something in the kitchen.

H said something along the lines of "that's the thing about boys, annoying yes but that's why men are inventors - pushing boundaries"

I said "surely it's just society that means women have had fewer opportunities to be inventors and innovators"

H laughed and said "absolutely not - you see it from such a young age. girls are smarter in a way but naturally compliant, boys don't do as well academically - but they are innovators, disrupters"

I think this is one of many insanely sexist things my husband has come out with in the last few years.

But I wonder what others think? Are his views mainstream./

Nothing at all to do with differences in education and opportunities then....girls taught piano and sewing how to be in charge of a household and boys sent off to boarding schools for proper education not finishing school to learn how to be a lady.....your not going to learn the principals of engineering doing a sampler. The few who did break out had enlightened fathers who educated their daughters and encouraged them at a time when women were fighting for the vote.

Does dad do housework and cooking?

No. This is not true.

Non compliant woman include (without limitation):

Madame Currie
Amelia Earhart
Margaret Thatcher (love her or loathe her, she broke the glass ceiling and remade Britain)
Rosa Parks
The Pankhurst sisters
Madonna
Mother Theresa
Catherine the Great

All woman that history will remember as change makers in their fields.

There are numerous other histories including the woman in NASA, at Bletchley Park etc, where we would have been buggered but for the innovative of women.

So I think it is sexist to say that innovation and compliance are sex based qualities. It's a version of the old trope that men are rational but women are hysterical.

Lots of research has been done looking at how adults treat children according to the perceived gender not ability....the one where the babies were dressed as boys then girls and introduced to the same group of adults to play....babies perceived to be male were rolled about, brick building etc then as presented as females cuddled and sang too ....

Can you provide the research behind this? I'm not aware of anything showing this.

When your boys were toddlers, was he the type of parent who smiles as their child hits another child at soft play and says "Ahh yes, it's why men are better at sports. They practise using their muscles more." It just sounds as if he likes turning any negative behaviour of his kids into something to boast about.

How was mother Theresa non - compliant? She was probably the most compliant, complicit, complacent fundamentalist Catholic cult figure in recent memory. She complied with the teaching of the patriarchal church.

Numerous inventions by women were not allowed to be invented by women so a male got the credit instead. Esther Lederberg,Jocelyn Bell, Rosalind Franklin, lise Meitner had their nobel prize winning work claimed by their male compatriots. Ada lovelace is only finally getting recognition for her work to create the first computer program, Katherine Johnson only now more recognised thanks to hidden figures.

Men have made innovations sure, but their path is often historically smoother and their words accepted more than the women who dared to step out and reject the shackles of society.

Also. Girls academically wipe out boys on average from primary school to university results.

And you married him.

Your husband's wrong. Girls are socialised to be compliant and even as a parent if you treat a girl and a boy the same, the girl is being fed constant subliminal messaging through the choice in toys they're given (dolls, toy vaccuum cleaners, sparkly, pink things to make them look pretty and appealing...), plus the way they're treated by teachers, seeing adverts on TV depicting women in caring, household roles, etc. Men like your husband hype the male ego up at a young age and give boys easy access to inventor type roles, whereas girls don't get the same emphasis/support and grow up having to work harder to prove that they can do the same things. Often careers are over before they can even really begin because women fall pregnant and end up being stuck at home in a caring role for 18+ years.

There's more social stigma if girls grow up pushing boundaries and after a while it becomes so uncomfortable that I think a lot of females just stick to the status quo. Look at the stick women are currently getting for supposedly being single 'crazy cat ladies' - we get ostracised for not fitting into the idealised social norm. Thankfully it's mostly just verbal for those of us in westernised society and we don't get burnt on the stake anymore, but I do think that historical trauma like that is ingrained in all of us.

@jannier perhaps I should rephrase to say that sex-based variability in IQ/intelligence is a hypothesis rather than a proven theory, which has many examples of research that shows this greater variability as well as some criticism and controversy.

The issue with this idea is that variability is specifically about the outliers, at both ends of a bell curve. The idea is often used to justify sexist/misogynist ideas about all men/women or about the average/typical man/woman, which just is nonsense.

That's why women have wrists, so they can flap their hands.

Wow, your DH sounds irritating to say the least.

He should read The Confidence Code just to see what a struggle it is to be a confident “disruptive” woman. We constantly have to “behave” according to social expectations and stereotypes. The more men there are in a room, the less likely a woman is to put up her hand to say anything. We are stunted literally by their presence and general over confidence in their own abilities which diminishes ours unless we work at it.

Men’s brilliance and obsessions has to date been facilitated by the patriarchy meaning women had to stay at home and raise children or care for others. University and career progression wasn’t on offer to them until relatively recently.

Even now we still pick up most of the chores, child-raising etc.

How do you find time to become a disruptor with all of that going on?

Obsessive behaviour often associates with ND whIch is 50% inherited.

He speaks in a patriarchal tongue. Your boys simply have testosterone running around them. That’s all. That’s the behaviour.

That's a criticism of ideology and the institution of which she was a part. I recognise she was and is controversial, but it's a basic fact that she was a woman and achieved a vast amount over a lifetime of commitment.

That does not suggest a submissive / compliant personality to me.

Do you agree my wider point though? Innovation and determination are not sex based qualities.

Women have invented and innovated a hell of a lot more than they have been given the credit for, that's for sure. Relegated to the status of irrelevant assistants to brilliant men or simply forgotten by history.

Given the insane restrictions on educational opportunities for girls and women throughout the majority of history, and the lack of time and opportunities that come with a life of mandatory domestic labour, I'd say the achievements of women as a class are remarkable.

Your husband is a fucking idiot. I suppose he thinks he's one of those male geniuses at the end of the bell curve does he?

I have two girls. Eldest I would say is more compliant and was easier because of that. The second one isn’t and challenges everything- wants to do everything herself or be involved always. As a person I’m probably compliant but will challenge and am the person in the house more likely to get on with things.

same parents.

The need of labels or putting children into boxes are the issue. Let them develop and just be. Pink isn’t a weakness as my glitter loving daughter who is in the top of science and maths - and gutted computer teacher when she didn’t select it for GCSE options as she was one of the ones to get python.

I think what my H was saying is not too dissimilar to this. The reason more men end up in prison, and end up inventing more stuff (tech, space travel) etc - is more extreme, disruptive behaviour - the disparity is larger and at the extreme intelligent end - they are more intelligent than women. More obsessive maybe.

I do think he thinks women do well acdemically is because we want to do well, as opposed to being really, really clever.

By the way - his career has flatlined, whereas mine has taken off. But maybe he thinks that's because I'm complaint & a 'good girl.

Add Rosalind Franklin, Hedy Lamarr, and all the women whose ideas were stolen from them or history ignored.

I work in a Stem field - plenty of very mediocre men who don't do their jobs very well, despite relying on the labour of women to keep their homes comfortable and look after their children.

Do you love this man? Because he sounds like a misogynistic cunt.

no he isn't and your position isn't the same as his, it is the same as OPs.

Which is that the reason girls didn't get to be inventors, discover things, have adventures as women is that GENDER STEREOTYPES and societal expectations that they adhere to those gender stereotypes prevented them from having the education to do that.

OP, tell him about people like Caroline Herschel who was her brother, William's housekeeper when they came to live in the UK and he was the king's astronomer. She did what her brother did (and took care of the household) in that she observed the heavens with him, and then she wrote down all their obvservations (his too, because ... men don't do "secretarial" work)

It is posited as pretty much the truth that she discovered several comets and Uranus. Even though her brother is credited with that.

And make sure that you make your boys learn how to do all the stereotypical girl stuff of housework etc.

Clearly there are more men in prison than women, but your H would need to demonstrate that's because of their low intelligence (or disruptive high intelligence?), rather than other factors. He would also need to demonstrate that men invent and innovate more than women, when restrictions on opportunity/education/socialisation factors are removed. Then he would need to demonstrate that those inventors and innovators have high IQs that put them at the top end of the male bell curve. Then he might be able to make the claim he's making!

But as already said, he is making an error in applying that hypothesis to men in general, or the average/typical man.

Are the sexes (more) different, or (more) the same?

It sounds like he's feeling a bit threatened by your career. He might be trying to logic his way out of feeling inferior. Does he work with many women OP? I do often notice that men who work in male-dominated fields that only have sons are often the worst for being sexist shits. They have very little reason or real-life evidence to go against their sexist views that naturally put themselves, their children and colleagues in the best light. Their views are often bolstered by seeing their colleagues and children being innovative. That doesn't help their partners though 😂.

IME the way women "complicate things" where men don't has led to us having to redesign a whole lot of stuff because the "uncomplicated" methods (yes, my devs, I'm looking at you) men choose to implement take no account of anything that they themselves have no direct experience of.

It is very clearly noticeable in the home. When my DCs were small we visited friends with DCs the same age (3 out of 4 in nappies). We wanted to go out for brunch. Got up, men showered, shaved, got dressed and waited by the door swinging car keyes, tapping feet and joking among themselves about how long it took women to get ready. The women: got up, ensured children were changed bottled-up/breastfed washed and dressed. Shoes on, baby bags had the right stuff in them, showered, dressed, rechanged the baby, etc etc.

2nd day when we were going for brunch: we got up showered dressed and left the house with a light "see you there". They never showed up. Because they couldn't get themselves and all the kids out of the house. Not even couldn't get them out in time for brunch, just couldn't handle it and just made huge piles of toast for everyone.

Men are so bloody smug over the 0.1% of males and their achievements. The average male is thick as shit (world IQ: 85). 'He' provides nothing of value and treats women and children like trash. We are all beneficiaries of the minority of very smart males and the caregiving and law-abiding nature of 99% females. The average male is absolutely nothing to brag about, we'd be better off without them. Why do they focus on the tiny minority of males, of which they have nothing in common with, and devalue women and girls? I truly don't understand the superiority complex. I would not be happy about these statements being made around my children.

Yes, I fully concur with your wider point.

Mother Theresa achieved a lot in a mothering/caring role, she was rewarded and supported by the patriarchy because she rejected vanity, embraced humility and handed all donations to the Catholic Church, she self sacrificed for the patriarchy and complied with the church dictated gender roles. This compliance was rewarded by men.

She was brave, but also had no detailed medical knowledge, she advocated the re-use of syringes, didn't give painkillers as she felt suffering brought the dying closer to God. She was also quite harsh on other women.

She achieved what she could in the circumstances, even if less than ideal.