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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

TAs does your primary school have them?

185 replies

dhlihdhb · 23/07/2024 19:16

Apparently our primary school has decided they wont have any TAs next year other than those with a one to one. Is that the norm? Have to say am pretty disappointed but not sure how widespread that is.

OP posts:
crumblingschools · 24/07/2024 18:24

A lot can depend on parental attitude too. So you may live in a low income area so more children on FSM so school get PP. But if the demographic is mainly of a culture that values education, school will get parental support which will back up the work done in school.

MrsBennetsPoorNerves · 24/07/2024 19:00

Iamnotthe1 · 24/07/2024 18:07

No, I'm absolutely not suggesting that there should be a revolving door of staff when they get too expensive. However, cost-saving and income-generating measures do need to be looked at.

A £1.1m wage bill for only teachers would be expected for, based on average wages, a 5 form intake primary. That would be a huge school for the primary level and would benefit from other economies of scale (headteacher/admin costing less per pupil or an increased impact of per pupil funding increases, etc). They are also hit gentler for the underfunding. For example, a 5 form entry primary would have an annual budget, based on per pupil funding, of nearly £5m. I'm saying this because I'd be concerned that a school like that justifying laying off support staff by citing the teacher pay increase would be being disingenuous.

If your school is smaller than that, with lower funding, but still with the same level of costs then you do have to question how the budget is being spent/managed, not least because, based on what you've said, the year before this one, the budget was only breaking even.

I'm sorry to labour this point but I'm very wary of the wage rise being used as an excuse, as I'm seeing it being used across a number of schools/trusts and in the public discourse. When you actually do the calculations, it alone can not be responsible for the extensive laying off of support staff.

I'm not sure how you've done your calculations, but I have no idea how you could staff a 5-form entry primary school on that budget, even with cheaper inexperienced teachers. Not after you've factored in NI and pension costs which are obviously impacted by the pay increases as well.

As for our financial management, we've had external "experts" come in and look at it (voluntarily through ESFA and an independent commissioned by the governing board). They have concluded that the budgets are managed tightly and that the only way realistic way to reduce costs is to reduce staff costs. So we either need to get rid of our experienced and expensive teachers or cut back on support staff. We don't want to do either but sometimes tough decisions have to be made.

We also benchmark against other local schools. We know that the proportion of revenue budget spent on leadership team salaries is lower than average, and that our average teacher cost is higher than average. We spend a higher proportion of our overall budget on teacher costs and we have a higher staff retention rate. I don't know what we can do about that unless we proactively find ways to manage staff out once they get too expensive, or start treating staff like shit so that they leave of their own accord. Given that we believe that the quality of education on offer is heavily dependent on the quality and wellbeing of our staff, neither of these are seen as reasonable ways forward.

Our primary focus at the moment is on developing income generating activities to help plug the gaps, but those are long term measures that won't resolve the immediate pressures on our funding.

Perhaps the situation at your school is different and cuts to support staff don't need to be made. But all schools are different and I can only speak for the one that I know well.

BaselineDrop · 24/07/2024 19:15

We have 2-3 per class for a three form entry primary school. Not sure whether they are all FT and some will be 1-2-1 I assume.

MrsBennetsPoorNerves · 24/07/2024 19:21

NowItsMeMyselfAndI · 24/07/2024 18:19

That makes sense. Does having more SEN and pupil premium help ? Or does it tend to fall short of what’s needed? I think if anything my local primary is below average (and also in an LA that is low funding per pupil historically)

It may vary a bit from school to school as to how things work out, but typically a higher proportion of pupils with SEN will result in higher costs for schools (because they typically have to fund the first £6k of support costs from school budgets) whereas a higher proportion of pupil premium children results in more income because of the extra funding that those pupils attract. Schools are expected to demonstrate that they are spending that extra income to benefit the pupils to whom it is attached, but if that could include employing TAs etc if that was deemed to be the best way of helping to address the inherent disadvantages that those children might face.

crumblingschools · 24/07/2024 19:22

Do people know whether they are going to have the same number of TAs in September as they did when school closed for summer

MrsBennetsPoorNerves · 24/07/2024 19:24

MrsBennetsPoorNerves · 24/07/2024 19:21

It may vary a bit from school to school as to how things work out, but typically a higher proportion of pupils with SEN will result in higher costs for schools (because they typically have to fund the first £6k of support costs from school budgets) whereas a higher proportion of pupil premium children results in more income because of the extra funding that those pupils attract. Schools are expected to demonstrate that they are spending that extra income to benefit the pupils to whom it is attached, but if that could include employing TAs etc if that was deemed to be the best way of helping to address the inherent disadvantages that those children might face.

Of course, some schools also get extra funding for SEN pupils who need 1:1 support and then misuse this funding by having the TA support the whole class, but clearly, they shouldn't be doing this as that then means that the SEN child for whom the funding was allocated isn't getting the support that they need.

Sometimeswinning · 24/07/2024 19:27

BrumToTheRescue · 24/07/2024 17:57

The school may want to move away from 1:1s, but if 1:1 is detailed, specified and quantified in F of any of the EHCPs, 1:1 must be provided.

If section F is for say 25 hours and I have 3 children who all have that. Plus there are 2 children awaiting ehcps who cannot be in class due to their behaviour (As in they choose to leave/hide) It has become impossible to reach these levels anymore.

Id say around 18 of my class are on the SEN register. 3 have ehcps, 1 has extremely challenging behaviour (no ehcp) The school have made a decision which meets all the needs it can. It’s really made a difference this year.

JSMill · 24/07/2024 19:31

crumblingschools · 24/07/2024 19:22

Do people know whether they are going to have the same number of TAs in September as they did when school closed for summer

When schools announce who will teach each class in the coming year, they usually say which TA will be in the class.

APurpleSquirrel · 24/07/2024 19:38

My DCs school is a tiny village primary with only 2 classes (mixed year groups). One class has a teacher, 2 TAs (one will be a 1-2-1 TA in Sept) & is advertising for a third. The other class has a teacher & 2 TAs.
All TAs are full-time.

crumblingschools · 24/07/2024 19:43

@APurpleSquirrel are the teachers full-time? How many pupils?

APurpleSquirrel · 24/07/2024 19:45

Yes, teachers are full time, but I believe they do do their prep work (is it PPA?) during the school day, so I think they don't teacher one afternoon each week.
One class has under 20 pupils, the other is under 30 - less than 50 pupils in the school.

BrumToTheRescue · 24/07/2024 19:47

Sometimeswinning · 24/07/2024 19:27

If section F is for say 25 hours and I have 3 children who all have that. Plus there are 2 children awaiting ehcps who cannot be in class due to their behaviour (As in they choose to leave/hide) It has become impossible to reach these levels anymore.

Id say around 18 of my class are on the SEN register. 3 have ehcps, 1 has extremely challenging behaviour (no ehcp) The school have made a decision which meets all the needs it can. It’s really made a difference this year.

EHCPs are a legal document. If F details, specifies and quantifies 1:1, it must be provided. It is not optional. Other pupils, funding and resources are irrelevant to the law. The school leaves themselves and the LA (ultimately it is the LA responsible for ensuring provision is delivered) open to legal action. Any parent whose DC is not receiving the SEP detailed, specified and quantified in F should pursue enforcement action.

crumblingschools · 24/07/2024 19:49

@APurpleSquirrel school will probably get scarcity funding then, so that will help boost the coffers. Is it a standalone school or part of a Trust?

APurpleSquirrel · 24/07/2024 19:50

It's in a Federation with another rural primary. Our head is very good at getting funding for lots of things.

Sometimeswinning · 24/07/2024 19:57

BrumToTheRescue · 24/07/2024 19:47

EHCPs are a legal document. If F details, specifies and quantifies 1:1, it must be provided. It is not optional. Other pupils, funding and resources are irrelevant to the law. The school leaves themselves and the LA (ultimately it is the LA responsible for ensuring provision is delivered) open to legal action. Any parent whose DC is not receiving the SEP detailed, specified and quantified in F should pursue enforcement action.

Well hopefully ehcps have a complete overhaul when people realise they are no longer fit for purpose. 1:1s are no longer realistic in the primary classroom. Maybe if enough parents complain it will be looked into. Or a load of schools are going to be fined for not meeting impossible needs.

crumblingschools · 24/07/2024 19:58

Also happens that not all funding per EHCPs is paid out.

BrumToTheRescue · 24/07/2024 20:00

If 1:1 is reasonably required, and it must be if it is detailed, specified and quantified in F, it is realistic and parents can successfully enforce their child’s EHCP, including via judicial review where necessary. EHCPs can be fully funded, but LAs won’t do this unless forced.

Sirzy · 24/07/2024 20:01

Sometimeswinning · 24/07/2024 19:57

Well hopefully ehcps have a complete overhaul when people realise they are no longer fit for purpose. 1:1s are no longer realistic in the primary classroom. Maybe if enough parents complain it will be looked into. Or a load of schools are going to be fined for not meeting impossible needs.

For some children they are very much what is needed, it’s the only way they can access an education. It certainly isn’t right for everyone with an EHCP but to suggest they are never needed is wrong and will lead to children not being able to access education.

my son is going into year 10, he has had full time 1-1 since he was 6 and that has kept him in mainstream school and in a position where he is thriving. He will always need a high level of support in life but the 1-1 has given him the best chance of recieving the education he is entitled to. Hence why the local authority have agreed it’s needed.

Sometimeswinning · 24/07/2024 20:31

Sirzy · 24/07/2024 20:01

For some children they are very much what is needed, it’s the only way they can access an education. It certainly isn’t right for everyone with an EHCP but to suggest they are never needed is wrong and will lead to children not being able to access education.

my son is going into year 10, he has had full time 1-1 since he was 6 and that has kept him in mainstream school and in a position where he is thriving. He will always need a high level of support in life but the 1-1 has given him the best chance of recieving the education he is entitled to. Hence why the local authority have agreed it’s needed.

But it’s not 1 child in a class anymore. If I had to work with just one child and there are no other TAs the school can afford (which is the case) do I just leave those other children to miss out? They are also entitled to an education. But there is one of me in a class and one teacher.

Dont misunderstand I work hard to support as many children as I can. In an ideal world every child with an ehcp gets their hours and one to one. Those who are behind and struggle have a class TA to help them. But that’s not happening anywhere in mainstream schools.

So yes, ehcps need looking at and changing because staffing isn’t an option.

AngelusBell · 24/07/2024 20:32

Willsean · 24/07/2024 11:49

The 'certain number of hours' or entitlement are still being provided in my example, as I'm talking about more focus on the child with SEND from the teacher. This is often better than a 'helper' sitting by their side to tick a box.

Many TAs are highly knowledgeable and might be qualified in various ways, but the child's teacher is accountable and the one who is most likely (hopefully) to have been trained in evidence based pedagogy, to a high level in their subject and also in additional needs.

I'm not talking about trying to get away without providing what is stipulated, but that rigid ideas about what support actually looks like don't always help actual access to the curriculum for the neediest.

Some TAs are just as qualified, if not more qualified, than the teacher. Some TAs just think they know better than the teacher. The way it works is that the teacher is effectively the TA’s line manager in the classroom. The “velcro TA” isn’t necessarily the best way to support even the most high needs child.

My concern is external consultants deciding how much support a student should have. That should be the role of the SENCo.

BrumToTheRescue · 24/07/2024 20:37

and there are no other TAs the school can afford (which is the case)

Again, EHCPs can be fully funded. If the school needs more money to deliver the SEP in F that is between them and the LA. The LA is ultimately responsible for ensuring it is provision, the school could also support parents to enforce their DC’s EHCPs via judicial review.

Harvestmoo · 24/07/2024 20:39

Cobblersorchard · 24/07/2024 15:23

They are all like that here, there’s about 12 small schools in our learning trust (although ours is the smallest) and they all have similar ratios. A few are single form entry but the majority aren’t.

It’s why property prices are so ridiculous- the schools are all very good.

I think this can only be to do with the difference in pupil funding by county, unless there are a lot of lower main scale teachers? Schools round here with 60-70 pupils in affluent areas are struggling to even run 3 classes because they get so little PP funding. Scarcity funding also helps but it's quite common to get a lot of very small schools within quite a tight rural area and so they don't qualify. I'd expect a 70 pupil school to have about 2.8 FTE of teachers, a full time KS1 TA and a full time KS2 one, not counting any 1:1s.

Sunshineandpool · 24/07/2024 20:42

That's dreadful. My DD is at Secondary but they have lots of LSAs.

How can a school provide SEN support to DC that require it without TAs/LSAs?

Sometimeswinning · 24/07/2024 20:56

BrumToTheRescue · 24/07/2024 20:37

and there are no other TAs the school can afford (which is the case)

Again, EHCPs can be fully funded. If the school needs more money to deliver the SEP in F that is between them and the LA. The LA is ultimately responsible for ensuring it is provision, the school could also support parents to enforce their DC’s EHCPs via judicial review.

Surely it would be argued that the school already has an allocated budget for part payment of an ehcp. I’ve personally never heard of a school not funding part of one or demanding it’s covered by the LA. I would love to know where you have heard about this?

SunnySideDownUp · 24/07/2024 21:02

Sometimeswinning · 24/07/2024 19:57

Well hopefully ehcps have a complete overhaul when people realise they are no longer fit for purpose. 1:1s are no longer realistic in the primary classroom. Maybe if enough parents complain it will be looked into. Or a load of schools are going to be fined for not meeting impossible needs.

I don't understand what you mean by 1:1s not being realistic? If they're needed, they're needed. Why should parents complain?