I find my daughter very stubborn

[summer20241]

She’s only 9 and I’m looking for advice and guidance to stop things escalating when she gets older. Please no comments on my parenting. I am really trying and just looking for some advice Example of things: I asked her to brush her teeth this morning and she started screaming at me “NOT YET” I asked her calmly again. She refused then I said she won’t have breakfast till her teeth are brushed. When I try to brush her teeth myself she shouts and screams.

She’s okay and quite lovely when I don’t ask her to do anything but it feels like she tries to argue on purpose with me at times. I’ve been researching online and found ODD (oppositional defiance disorder). She fits the description. It’s just when she’s asked to do things.

I’ve seen how these threads go when I tried to research on mumsnet! I’ve never posted about her before but I’ve read lots of threads and I’m worried about posting on here as I have a feeling this will go one of two ways from other threads I’ve read. Please give me some practical advice and your experience of kids that were like this and how did they grow up? The same or things get better as they age? Thanks in advance

Sorry for typos! I’ll come back in a bit and edit

Just to note I did not try to brush her teeth for this morning. I’m talking about when we’re late for school and she doesn’t brush them.

What consequences do you have for when she is disobedient?

I am a parent of children with ASD and adhd so oppositional defiance disorder comes with the territory. But I’d not make my children brush their teeth before breakfast to start with, it’s a tad pointless and would trigger sensory issues around eating said breakfast. Teeth brushing is between breakfast and getting dressed. Very strict routine in the mornings is how we get by, it does all tend to fall apart on weekends and in the holidays but even if it happens later the key is to reduce stress.

@cupcaske123 things taken away - iPad, tv. Time out. For good behaviour we go places like her favourite cafe, bowling etc.

Brushing teeth before breakfast is weird, I wouldn't want to do it either.

But yeah, consequences are your friend here

@LostTheMarble thank you. I don’t feel like I’m explaining it properly it’s really hard to but it’s like she has no issues 99% of the time but it feels like she likes getting her way. She says things like “no! You listen to ME!”,

That’s really strange you guys saying not brushing teeth before breakfast! You have to wait 30 - 60 minutes after eating otherwise. Teeth enamel is more likely to get damaged if you brush straight after eating.

www.healthline.com/health/should-you-brush-your-teeth-before-or-after-breakfast

Please let’s not derail this thread with brushing now! That’s just an example.

What happens with your DD if you offer a choice "now or in five minutes"? Worked well with my DS.

I would not try to brush a 9 year old's teeth for her.

And you can try using positive language like when/then instead of not/until - when you've brushed your teeth then we can have breakfast. It's surprising how much difference that can make. It's calming, and a lot of stubbornness is actually fuelled by anxiety.

A couple of resources to try. For children with this profile Ross Greene's "Explosive Child" book and website can be very effective. The children he's talking about may be more extreme than your DD but you can adapt the strategies to suit.

You can also try oldie but goodie Sue Jenner's "Parent-Child Game". In her way of describing children your DD may be "slow to warm up".

They both helped my DC who tended to react this way to demands. He ended up with an ASC diagnosis but these ones are not ASC specific books and they were very useful anyway!

For your morning routine try having a tick chart

brush teeth
get changed
eat breakfast
pack bag
etc

have a deal that all things need to be done and ticked off before leaving the house and if she happens to have 5 minutes extra before leaving the house she is allowed iPad time or the promise of something like a sweet treat at school pick up in the afternoon.

if she can see her jobs written down infront of her and knows something nice hangs on the condition that she does then it may help.

Try giving timings. “In five minutes, it will be time to brush your teeth” or ask “What time will you brush your teeth?”, this gives them a feeling of autonomy and time to mentally prepare. Don’t demand anything without notice.

Consequences should be instant and short. I’m not saying your daughter has adhd but using similar strategies wouldn’t hurt. Because the emotions are in the moment, longterm consequences and positive outcomes are less effective. Does she start the day with the iPad? In our house there’s no screens at all until breakfast/teeth/getting dressed is done. My eldest gets 10 minutes after this has been done in the morning as I need to help his siblings get ready. Access to screens is put away the night before, it’s not a punishment but part of the daily routine.

What @DaisyChain505 said helped for us as well 🙂

In my experience the threat of "consequences" tended to make this particular kind of conflict worse.

Consequences don't work so well for my DD8. She has ADHD (possibly other stuff as yet undiagnosed) but we get exactly the response you have had when asking her to brush teeth. We tried everything over many months, trying to get to the bottom of why she refused. Now we take a very low demand approach to stuff like this - she is very demand avoidant at times. I pop the toothpaste on the brush hold it near her while she is playing or otherwise occupied and sometimes she takes it and does it, other times I just say 'time to open your mouth' or I ask 'shall I or will you?' and usually one of these will work. The threat of consequences just escalated things into a power struggle. Calmly explaining outside of the moment that teeth need to be cleaned so we can have fruit, puddings etc and so the dentist doesn't have to scrape too much when we visit next goes down better than in the moment reminders of the natural consequences of not cleaning teeth. Teeth cleaning is much more consistent now. Good luck!

Thank you so much everyone. I’m reading the advice and making notes!

I asked her to brush her teeth this morning and she started screaming at me “NOT YET”
You are controlling the timing a lot for a 9yo. Give her more autonomy over when, or a longer deadline

I asked her calmly again. She refused then I said she won’t have breakfast till her teeth are brushed. Immediate escalation to this threat is self-defeating. You want her to eat breakfast. Instead explain that teeth brushing is very important to avoid problems. Try to shift this so cleaning teeth is something she does for herself, not because you tell her to.

When I try to brush her teeth myself she shouts and screams. This sounds borderline abusive, she is nine not three!

.

@DaisyChain505 is it best to physically tick each task or just mentally? I confess I made a chart but never got around to printing it off!

im a grown adult and i have the brush my teeth the minute i wake up! its just what i do, maybe its what i learned.

I know you don’t want advice on parenting but afraid that’s exactly what you asked for and what you need. You to focus on first avoinding confrontation and secondly how to deal with it.

For getting dressed I would always do it in the same order and make sure she has a check list. Then you can avoid closed question by saying where are you up to on your list? Or have a think about what you like for breakfast while you’re brushing your teeth.

what is she doing when she is refusing to brush her teeth? My daughter gets very distracted when getting dressed and finds having the radio on at the same time stops her getting bored and wandering off.

Haven't read it myself but people often suggest The Explosive Child as a good book for defiant kids?

My children are a lot younger, so my techniques may not be good for you, but often if I'm out of battery I don't opt for the argument. I wait. Inevitably within a few minutes I am needed for something. I withold my help until my request has been met.

For example...
time to brush teeth
i don't want to!
you might not want to, but it is time to brush teeth
(leave it there....)
(....two minutes later)
Muuuuum, can you help me with this?
'Absolutely, as soon as you've brushed your teeth.'

Works 90% of the time.

Also we have a chart for the morning routine, so it's not a battle with me, it's things on a list they need to complete. That helps. Was sick of being the law enforcer for daily stuff that isn't a rule I've imposed for no good reason, it's just what has to be done in the morning. i.e. getting dressed for school.

'

@summer20241

my instant reaction is

oooh, she wouldn't in my house!!

🤣🤣

& she wouldn't, but she'd have learnt that when she was 3, not 9.

if you think she might hsve ODD (even
if she doesn't) what's the harm in using the strategies for children who do??

i know it's not all about this, but take teeth cleaning for instance. I HATE cleaning my teeth, but especially before breakfast/coffee, talk to her about it and ask at which point
of the the morning she prefers to clean her teeth and agree/negotiate until you're both happy then see if she does that over the next few days. If not discuss again.

if she's generally a good kid, I'd try to work things out to be mutually agreeable rather than dictatorial. It doesn't sound like she's just being a PITA. For the sake of it,

Just screenshot this from the internet, but ours looks like this. I drew it and then used velcro dots.

We have one for the morning and one for bed.