To wonder if a lot of the Just Stop Oil protesters are not very nice people on a personal level

[HazelSchmazel]

There are a few Just Stop Oil threads around and I've noticed that a couple of posters have stated that the protesters are not very nice people.

Which got me thinking .....

A few years ago, I was in a horrible relationship with a rather unpleasant guy - a selfish, alcoholic, abusive cheater, who treated me like dirt and ended up stealing a considerable amount of money from me. Despite being a daily meat eater, regularly flying, driving a gas guzzler, having children etc. he would regularly pontificate on saving the environment (and would castigate me on environmental grounds for having a cat - even though I'm a childless vegetarian, who never flies!). Needless to say, the whole experience made me very unhappy.

Fast forward to the present, and I gather that he is now a very active Just Stop Oil protester.

Now, I'm bracing myself to be shot down in flames, as I appreciate that of course, it's unreasonable to judge an entire movement based on one bad apple.

But could it be the case, that there is something about JSO that attracts these nasty characters? Just wondering ......

I think the thread raises many questions that extend beyond its stated topic. I don't want to stray too far; there've been other threads about the length of sentences etc. but a couple of thoughts:

There is something about JSO type groups and activities - high profile, extremely disruptive - that can attract a type of protester who is only interested in that type of adrenaline-seeking and/or authoritarian 'do what we say or else!' style of protest. Those people can be 'unschooled' in the ways of democratic protest and non-violent direct action. They haven't worked their way in through a movement, they've jumped in feet first at the tasty end and can be dangerously gung-ho and thoughtless (including about consequences for fellow protesters) as a result. (Other protesters can be very rational, committed, selfless and brave, there's always a mixture).

I have a lot of respect for activists and movements that have tried everything first, the letter-writing, MP meetings, awareness-raising etc before reaching a point where the next step is non-violent resistance. Those people set the parameters of that movement for the others who join them only for the direct action part.

Movements that jump from zero to direct action are scarier, because they haven't been through those years of discussion and shared decision-making, so can more easily make mistakes.

A group like JSO could reasonably argue that we've been through decades of awareness-raising, MP lobbying etc on climate change, it hasn't worked and there's no more time to waste. But as a solely direct action group, they will attract more 'direct action only' type protesters. The leadership and culture of the organisation then becomes crucial.

There can be really effective direct-only groups. JSO doesn't look much like one, in terms of its protest choices. No idea about its internal culture.

Non-violent direct action can cause a lot of disruption and inconvenience, as other forms of protest do too; strikes, marches through central London. Deliberately choosing to block ambulances though - I think that crosses the boundary into violence. It's not unintended collateral damage, it's a deliberate act of violence against the occupant of that ambulance.

What I'd ask, of all those those saying that everything JSO does is wrong and ineffective, is what sort of protest action do you think would be good and effective, on such a huge and urgent issue?

Who is gaining from this?

They’re gaining attention but it’s certainly not bringing anything to the cause, if anything it’s turning people away. Either they’re hard of thinking and don’t see that or they don’t actually care about the cause and just want the attention.

As for peaceful protest, they might not be assaulting people but they’re causing definite harm to people and the environment with their actions so I’m not sure that it is peaceful to be honest.

Are they? How many ambulances haven't arrived in time due to JSO? Possibly one. How many ambulances are delayed by cuts to the NHS? Almost all of them.

How many people in ambulances have the Tories killed by cutting health services, and were their intentions good? This thread is just another case of little people hating on the little people. I'm not going to engage further on this thread because it won't go anywhere positive.

It's entirely possible to think both things are wrong. But knowing how long people have had to wait for ambulances due to NHS shortfalls and crisis, why would you block or delay them further?
They might have waited 6 hours for an ambulance already....and then be delayed by protesters. Both will have am impact on the outcome

Oh behave, there's multiple footage of the holdups they've caused to lots of emergency vehicles. Just one...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-63743383

https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/just-stop-oil-dartford-ambulance-not-delayed-m20-accident/

You behave. What's the biggest cause of ambulance delays over any given day?

So the answer to that is block ambulances anyway? As the government is not dealing with ambulance times effectively what does it matter that JSO block them?! Yes, behave.

My father was like this. Charismatic, activist, popular, well liked, respected member of the community but an absolutely shit husband and father. Horrible man. He had a strong sense of justice and doing what is right. That, somehow, didn't show in the way he treated his family. Of course they are not all like this. I am not from the UK.

So because there are chronic issues in our health system, JSO are justified in taking action that makes it worse? That is a monumentally stupid position.

All this deflection does is reveal you know JSO's actions are indefensible, so you need to try to divert the argument elsewhere.

Rapists and child abusers who are convicted for the third time don't get shorter sentences.

It is. But one is the direct result of political decisions made by politicians (big oil donates to the Tory party & 43 peers have investments in fossil fuel) who want to undermine the NHS, the other believe they're fighting for the health of the planet.

It's possible to work out how many excess deaths have been caused by each group and conclude that the ones in prison aren't as responsible the other group in parliament.

I agree. There will likely be more arseholes per hundred than the average population but really, what is the alternative?

Literally nothing else has worked. Every moderate approach has been batted off or co-opted. We are on fire.

I never said that, I'm just putting it into perspective.

Poor Cresidaaah who will miss her brothers wedding! 🙄 the irony 🤦🏻‍♀️

It’s not a perspective, it’s whataboutery and excuses.

So for all the supporters and ‘we are on fire’ activists, would you sacrifice your own life? I mean this cause is bigger than anyone else’s, why don’t you start with your own?

This is such a clear example of the appalling thinking patterns of JSO and its fans. Just staggering.

The bottom line is, you have no moral right to put non-consenting people at risk of harm for your principles. Put yourself at harm, for your direct action, like I used to, but not others.

Your ' Oh look a squirrel' diversion tactics are not defences of your chosen actions. In fact, they are a tacit admission that you can't defend them.

The suffragettes aldo had one main goal that was easily achievable and could have been achieved by those in authority ( thete is also an argument that it was the far more peaceful suffragists who achieved votes for women and would have done far earlier had it not been for the more highly publicised suffragette movement).JSO haven't made their demands clear by their antics. Just stop oil? How? What replaces it? What are the consequences of immediately stopping oil production? Do they know? Do they care? Saying ' oh we're terrified about the planet being destroyed so we are going to jump on a train' achieves nothing to publicise what they want to happen. Their moral panic also makes people think they are lying. People have been saying the planet will be dead in 10 years for 30 years. Hyperbole does nothing. In the meantime lots of people are actually doing productive things to mitigate the effects of climate change, quietly and effectively while these attention seekers throw soup at paintings and glue themselves to roads and cry about missing out on their degrees in music.

🤦‍♀️

if Social Media had been around in 1910 I can imagine the slating the suffrage movement would have had

did any of you not vote last election as you don’t believe in protests of any type?

Do you really think that over 4 days and 51000 hours of delays there was only one ambulance delayed? One ambulance in 4 days used the m25? Really?

And to compound that, you think that an acceptable response to this is to say ‘yes but all the other ambulances are delayed anyway and it’s not their fault’.

Your cognitive dissonance is practically clinical in its absurdity.

It's called perspective. Oil & gas companies get fines for their crimes, not jail. Politicians get a seat in the Lords. I don't think JSO protesters deserve to be treated more harshly in the UK and neither does the UN.

Probably not, but I can only find evidence of one proven critical delay of an ambulance by JSO, beyond hearsay.

It certainly takes a level of narcissism to put yourself in a moral pedestal so high that you think your own ethical concerns (carbon emissions) trump all others. Two women died on the Dartford bridge directly because of JSO activities. Who knows how many other ambulance delays have resulted in death or worse health outcomes because of them. They have also caused permanent damage to our cultural heritage.

My view is that, if they are serious and want to make a public statement then there are positive ways of getting media attention. They could pick littler on the beach and turn it into public sculptures, for example. But they like causing destruction and harm.

We need to hold other people accountable too. That’s not an argument for continuing to allow JSO to get away with criminal activities at the expense of the law abiding public.

People are responsible for their own actions. It's as simple as that.

Protest groups decide for themselves what lines they will and will not cross.

To me, the gulf between non-violent action (which can be disruptive) and violence; deliberately harming other people, is vast.