Arguement about disciplining toddlers

[Sunshining20]

I have a 2 year old and 4 year old.

Wanted to try the gentle (ish) parenting but it hasn't worked for us our children are not great at listening and quite demanding.

We now do time outs alone in bedroom or on the stairs if they shout, throw something or defiantly don't listen.

I'm really struggling as my DH feels like we are on one hand quite permissive but then we hear other parents say they never shout at their dc, never label any behaviour naughty or give time outs. So what are they doing then? How are their children disciplined? And well behaved and ours not sometimes?

Anyway DH says that time outs aren't controversial or wrong and we should stick to them. Finding this new era of parenting in terms of discipline really hard to navigate.

Aibu? Any tips?

Literally the only thing that so works with our fiveteen during the questioning everything phase is natural consequences. Cock about while getting ready for school? No time to choose her hairstyle like she wanted. Take a toy from her 3yo sister? Toy gets removed from her for the day.

However, whatever approach works for your child has to be applied with absolute, rock solid consistency. Chidlren are experts at sniffing out weak spots. I know this because I’m a teacher, but DH gives in all the time and then wonders why the children walk all over him. He’s persuadable with pester power while I’m immovable.

Not saying I’m the world’s best parent! But having a rock solid system means that I feel in control, and reduces the need to shout.

When my two were pre - schoolers we were firm and consistent. They are now 10 and 12 and lovely kids. My friends say how well - behaved they are. You cannot start gently and then try to get firmer as they get older, it doesn't work. In my opinion it's better to start firm.

Don’t do time outs because they instil that certain behaviour will leave them isolated and alone. A toddler doesn’t need to experience that, and no child needs to be on a naughty step - as they are not bad.

Remember tbey have only been on this planet a few years so they don’t understand certain things are wrong or really press our buttons

Also gentle parenting doesn’t mean not being firm.

2 year old just needs to moved away from what ever they are doing and watched for signs of tiredness or that they need to reconnect through a cuddle

I had 2 easy kids number three is a different kettle of fish, I have to watch her mood to determine what kind of behaviour is likely to occur and counteract it before it starts. That helps massively. If I notice a storm brewing I’ll spend time sitting with her engaging in conversation, lots of touch, stroking hair and it really worked/works. So for me nipping the behaviour that’s likely to piss you off BEFORE they do it I’d better than chastising AFTER.

It's normal for all 2 and 4 year olds to behave badly at times. And a degree of shouting and not listening is normal too.

Have a look at Janet Lansbury - lots of free stuff available online.

Shouting and punishing children doesn't help - you need to find other ways to manage them

Sometimes we do timeouts in the bedroom but it's more framed as 'you're having big feelings (stress/angry etc) and it would be good to have some calm down space' rather than 'go to your room!'.

We've tried to make the bedroom very zen for this reason and for bedtime. There are few toys but lots of soft and sensory stuff.

This is time in, which is a lot more effective than time out. I did use the step with dd when she was really little. She hated it and I didn’t use it often or for long as I learned time in was better imo.

Bedrooms shouldn't be a place of punishment and 2 years old is far too young for naughty step. I don't like naughty step, it's much harder work than it's worth IMO and I don't like the isolation aspect.

If they shout or demand something then they just don't get it - and they get a calm explanation that that behaviour doesn't get what they want. They will eventually learn but it takes time and consistency - but they're very young and the 2 year old will be learning from the 4 year old! So I'd concentrate on the 4 year olds behaviour in particular. There's no need for other punishment because the punishment is that they don't get what they want. It's about teaching them, not punishing them.

If they throw a toy then the toy gets taken away for a while until you think they can look after it properly because otherwise it might get broken. No other punishment required again just make sure they have lots of time outside with balls and things they can throw too.

Do the kids have a good clear routine? Routine is great for kids, especially bored, playing up ones. School has a lot of routine so the free time of a weekend or holidays in particular can be quite overwhelming. Make sure it includes lots of exercise, lots of doing things with you, playing games together. The more you occupy them the less time they will have to look for trouble. A lot of bad behaviour is down to boredom. Plus the more fun you have with them the more they will want to engage and so listen to you. Lots of noticing and commenting on good behaviour.

You don't need to shout, it soon just becomes background noise to a child if you do it all the time - but you can raise your voice a little, have a firm tone and have a 'look'. You can label behaviour as unkind, dangerous etc etc and explain why - but what makes something naughty? How can a child tell in advance that something is going to be considered naughty? Something unkind could hurt someone else, something dangerous could hurt them - what does something naughty do?

It's all about effort and calm consistency. Kids need a lot of both (some more than others). You'll find the more work you put into engaging positively with them the better their behaviour will be.

Doesn’t matter how zen the room is your teaching him that if you don’t like something he does he will be ostracised from the family.

Best way to make a people pleaser

We do 'quiet time' where we go to another room and sit together until they've calmed down

This argument is going the way of sleep training arguments. Time out, like sleep training, can be done in a harsh way that feels unpleasant.

Or it can be done in a much more understanding way.

Kids vary so much. I don't know how you'd 'time in' with two upset kids determined to tear each other's hair out. You separate and calm them in turn.

We used time out mostly when eldest DC was not upset but wild and out of control - jumping on us, throwing things, going berserk. It wasn't a punishment but a way to get her out of the room to reset. Then we'd discuss and resolve. Otherwise she'd always leap about until she or someone else got hurt. It was a way of preventing worse upset, basically.

I have really well behaved, confident children and never used ‘gentle’ methods which I think are confusing, ineffective and weak. I try to keep instructions as short as possible (a tip I learned on here that works - rather than ‘can you put your shoes on please’ just ‘Shoes on’). I raise my voice if necessary and the punishment is a withdrawal of treats/pudding if they cross the line in a serious way.

I will say I think enforcing light discipline from the age of about 12 months lays the foundations for good behaviour and compliance later on, I see too many parents refusing to say no to their toddler ‘because they’re too little’ then flailing around later trying to impose boundaries on a child who is used to doing what they want with no consequences. My 15 month old knows the word ‘No’ and will stop what he’s doing to look at me. Babies and toddlers read facial expressions which is why showing your displeasure helps them to understand, rather than ‘distracting’ or ‘removing them’ leaving them with no idea what they’ve done is wrong.

We did time outs with both of ours when they were little, but only for serious things like hitting or very deliberate misbehaviour repeatedly (eg throwing a toy at me three times after being told not to) where they clearly needed to calm down. Then we’d talk it through afterwards. I used to go in the kitchen so they could see me during the time out with my oldest, but DS (who we now know is autistic) got very upset so I stayed with him and it was more calm down time than anything else. Anything else was natural consequences / talked through.

It’s a little easier now they are older - poor behaviour impacts screen time in this house!

I would not put a child in a bedroom for time out that would have negative connotations for them then you may end up getting lots of problems at bedtime. Time out on the stairs is ok but don't make it long as they are still very young. Shouting does not work. Talking, talk through things so they learn good communication skills at the same time.

I will put mine in their bedrooms but not call it time out. I'll phrase it as calm down time or something. Their bedrooms are lovely and they have toys etc. So if my 7 year old is getting too much, starts shouting, being really defiant or rude I will say right in your bedroom, just to take him out of the situation. When it's calm I say to him he's in his bedroom to think about his behaviour,not as a punishment but just to calm down etc. I tell him to listen to his yoto or read or write.

My 4 year old sometimes gets put in his bedroom of a morning if he's stopping my eldest getting ready for school or something. Again he can play with his toys or Tonie. But if he's playing up it's easier to take him out of the situation.

Usually a bit of time in their room they come out calmer and a bit more conforming. And it helps me to not lose my shit HA.

I wouldn't class that as actual punishment. For punishments I usually take tablet/TV away or miss out on the park. If it's playing up in the evening it's an early bedtime. I don't follow 'gentle parenting'

@Suzieandthemonkeyfeet I will sit close by and he knows I'm there..

I think it reflects a natural consequence. In society you will be ostracized for being violent.

Massively over thinking it.

I think my best realisation for disciplining very small kids is to make the "punishment" very small and short lived. Then clean slate. All that matters is that they care about it.

"Right, you prodded Fred when I asked you not to. You will have to sit on the stairs for 30 seconds / let Fred have the toy on his own for 5 minutes / whatever." Then enforce it - by physically scooping them up if needed - even if they complain. Then back to doing something nice. And repeat!

There’s a mid ground between shouting and never telling off though, the voice that makes it clear it’s unacceptable. Even a look.
The zero tolerance. If you start as you mean to go on they soon understand you mean business. If you don’t hold my hand we are going home and go home etc.
Big believer in routines so children know what’s happening and aren’t hungry/overtired. Pep talks before you do outline expectations - its dangerous near the cars you must hold mummy’s hand.

Identifying the source of the problem helps, are they just overstimulated, hungry, thirsty, tired. What do they need in the moment. If it’s a quiet space, put them in a quiet space but stay in sight. Provide water, snack, blanket but don’t engage in conversation. Reassure them and put all the toys away. Only bring toys or whatever back out when they are calm and immediate needs have been met, water, nap, quiet etc. If toddlers get what they need from negative (to you) behaviour they will learn that this is the way to be. Screaming, throwing etc gets them a quiet nap and cuddle then that’s how they learn to ask for it. Try to drop in with the things they want when they are not mid tantrum, give the attention when they are coping.

I used time outs with my first born and it didn't work. It just pitched us against each other and caused him to seek control more and more. He was/is my most sensitive and also my most difficult child.
I didn't/dont use time out with my younger two. In fact I very rarely use punishments at all. I focus on connection, us all being a team, etc. If they do misbehave then we talk to them first, second remove them from the situation and then if we do punish it is loss of privileges, however, as I said we very very rarely punish.

Just don’t get what the naughty step is meant to teach. I’ve seen parents physically dragging screaming out of control toddlers to a step and then forcing them to stay there for the allocated time. Distressing and pointless for all involved.

Feels like just trying to break the will of the child and also rewards negative behaviour with a ton of parental attention.

Yes, totally agree with this. Our kids would go wild in their tantrums and 'time in' would make it worse. They needed to learn to self regulate when they lost their temper. The naughty step / being sent to their room quite quickly gave them the ability to calm themselves down when the fury was about to take hold. Now, they take themselves off to their respective spots when they're about to loose their shit and sit there in a humph. Kids / families are so different. I'm never sure these pronouncements that such and such technique is cruel is very helpful
Should disclose we also 'sleep trained' from the start and have two fantastic sleepers - again never sure why what we did was controversial at all. What works for one kid / family might not for another. It's as simple as that.