To think that Mumsnet is a little premature with the ‘Go No Contact!’

[Bex5490]

This came up on another thread but didn’t want to hijack so started a new one.

I’m just surprised at how often people on here advise going no contact with close members of family.

There are people in my family that have made bad choices at times but I would never dream of cutting them off.

I also still have friends from school decades later who have pissed me off at times but I value our shared history.

Obviously if someone is abusive, they should definitely be cut off. But AIBU to think that family is something you should work hard to keep hold of rather than being quick to walk away?

I totally agree with your post, but I wouldn't class having a connection with family as priviledge as that has a negative tone to it, as though those of us with it are somehow morally deficient, or at risk of being so.

Also, I don't think OP is judging anyone who has made the difficult decision to cut family out of their lives, but feels that the people who suggest doing it are too quick to cry "go NC!"

Anyway OP, it's up to individuals whether they take the advice or not, and some of them might not have even considered it a possibility.

Gone are the days when people had to endure toxic, vile fuckers because 'blood's thicker than water' and thank God for it. My husband's, and our family's lives have been massively improved by the removal of certain members of his family.

I agree with a PP, some of us put up with misery for years, and no one should have to.

Thanks. I think the problem is though that, whilst other people might not have such an extreme final straw, there will always be one.

I agree that sometimes posts on MN advocate going nc for the slightest thing but there is also often a sense that the OP hasn't given the full story and a bit of probing reveals 20+ years of issues by page 3.

I'd never advise going nc. It's not an easy decision and there are severe ramifications - we've also lost contact with everyone who has ever been family/like family to me. Due to the specifics, I'm not allowed to tell anyone why we don't have contact. My mother has been free to tell anyone whatever reason she likes so, as expected, she's made me the problem. I've lost everyone. But it was also worth it.

My feeling is nc should only ever be a last resort and as a means of self protection. I think there are probably too many people who use it as a form of punishment. That's where the SM influence comes in.

As others have said, I don’t think anyone in the real world goes NC without a seriously valid reason. But in answer to this specific question of yours

But AIBU to think that family is something you should work hard to keep hold of rather than being quick to walk away?

yes I think YABU. Family are just people you happen to share DNA with. Some people are lucky enough to have relatives that enrich their lives and support them and that’s great, of course those relationships should be nurtured as should relationships with anyone important to you, related or not. However, I don’t think a biological connection to someone inherently elevates their status or means you should tolerate things you wouldn’t from a friend, no.

Ratisshortforratthew

I agree.

Some people are born into truly horrific families. Ill considered unprotected sex can lead to a family. It doesn't mean they are good people. Or that they have their offsprings best interests at heart. Or that they are capable of being decent parents even if they want to be.

I actually think going no or low contact is a good trend. Historically women have been pushed and expected to 'kin keep' and put up with all kinds of crap from family out of obligation. Finally society is seeing that everyone deserves to be treated well and there is more knowledge around mental health. People can't get away with foul behaviour without repercussions anymore, as it will no longer be tolerated. Just because you're family with someone doesn't mean you should put up with years and years of unpleasantness. Liberated people have the option to walk away, and that is a good thing. It may even make people more mindful of how they treat others.

OP, you are right. I generally feel the prevailing ethic on here is very rule-bound. People are obsessed with not breaking the law (even minor shoplifting for example is viewed as diabolical) or any form of contract (adultery viewed as a form of theft, likewise employees who for example pull a sickie seen as heinously defrauding their righteous employers....)

I have always assumed this it's because it's largely quite a right wing website.

And the advocated approach to relationships of any kind seems to be absolute intolerance of any kind of fault or human failure. Women who remain in a relationship with men who are less than perfect are somehow derided as weak, told to "work on their self esteem" etc.

It doesn't seem to me to be a very workable, or indeed very pleasant, approach to human relationships. In my forty odd years I have found everyone to be hugely flawed really, including myself. If I cut everyone off who had ever let me down, I wouldn't have anybody left, and life would be very lonely....

(I see I have sounded quite critical of the site. I actually like it - that's why I come on here. Posters are intelligent, funny, share varied experiences etc. It's just the tendency to adore strict rules and view tolerance as weakness I dislike. But like I said, everything is flawed, doesn't make it worthless.......)

I think maybe I have a slightly biased view because one of my close family members is a drug addict and we have really struggled with the idea of letting her go.

We have been periodically NC with her over the years but these spells are always her choice not ours. We are for the most part a really loving family and she breaks our heart because we love her but she continually hurts us.

The spells of NC are much more relaxed for us (no stealing, abusive texts when we refuse to give her money etc.) but we kind of live on edge during these times because we don’t know where she is.

I know this isn’t the same at all as going NC with parents who have treated you badly so not making a comparison.

I think maybe because with her in the family we have all been raised to never give up on her (and I’m sure lots of you would say that isn’t a good thing) but it therefore surprises me when people champion NC for what to me seems like more trivial reasons.

I think the No Contact with family is a thing that comes out of Western therapy. I wasn't raised in the UK and I don't know anyone in the home country who would even think of cutting off close relatives, even abusive ones. It just isn't something you think you can do. I'm not saying it's good or bad. I'm sure there are many situations when No Contact is warranted, and traditional societies can trap people in horrible situations.

However, I see some people blame all their problems on abusive family, and fail to take responsibility for their contribution to the relationships or the bad patterns they've learned, while their therapist tells them they're 100% great people and victims. I know a woman who went No Contact with both parents, and from what she says they deserved it, they were abusive to her. But she is now also abusive to her own child, partly due to some things she's internalised from her family, and she doesn't acknowledge this at all. Her son has developed an eating disorder because of her (she constantly tells him he's fat, ugly etc.) So in 20 years time her own son may go NC with her.

And never opening the front door.

I don’t think anyone goes NC for trivial reasons. It’s often the straw that breaks the camels back.

I see what you mean.

But in RL, tend not to say those those things, and that can amount to a kind of subtle pressure to "stand by your man" (or equivalent if it's a toxic relative). And I think it's actually very valuable to remind posters that they do not have to stay and put up with shit.

That doesn't mean any expectation that people will follow the advice; simply that it's an option. And I think it does need to be said

Agree with this very much. To cite the classic example, no-one really leaves because the cup was left on the counter yet again, rather than being put in the dishwasher. But one day, what that little action represents in terms of wider disregard and lack of respect can indeed be the tipping point

Honestly not really.

I can’t believe some of the shit people put up with that they write about in here. Grown adults that can’t seem to use the word no.

Although perhaps setting boundaries or going low contact might be better in some cases rather than no contact at all.

I still maintain that a lot of people who post seem to have no boundaries or ability to establish them and therefore tolerate far more than they should.

I think in some cases thr intelligence level is pretty low people just blurt out what they hear other people say there is no real thought behind it

I think in families, people tend to put up with a lot, too much in fact, before cutting them off. I know I did. I regret not cutting them out of my life years before I did,

Maybe some people do it lightly, but no one I know.

Totally agree op, it's something that for sure many of us think about at times for various reasons but in actual reality it can be really complicated to actuality enact it. My mum was at times abusive and there was a period where I went very low contact but it put massive strain on the rest of my family who were also caring for her and realistically I do feel a sense of obligation to her.

I think sometimes this advice is given so frequently because people respond to the snapshot situations they read on here in a very black and white and logical way. But in reality life just isn't that simple. There's a level of skill and empathy that comes from dealing with difficult people and often difficult people hurt others because they have been hurt or are hurting. Really good advice would be to have clear realistic boundaries and a good support network!

I see a lot of posters say that LTB and NC are recommended as solutions for very minor problems. But they never show any examples.

NC & LTB in my experience are usually the response to abusive situations. Many women are encouraged to have low standards and stay with men / support family who abuse them. MN is the one place where they are encouraged to set their boundaries and put themselves first.

I am the person who has been frozen out by family. I have contact with a few still, but a large chunk cut me out. It was obvious; I was treated like a bad smell when I arrived and was openly ignored when asking direct very polite questions. They'd decided I was persona non grata. Long history of being the odd one out. Since that day I have only made as much contact as is necessary and polite as one or two members of the family still care for me. I'm ok with it now. Just the perspective from.the other side. And I don't know what the exact reason is, I could probably guess but I don't want to. If they are all unable to tell me what the problem is I don't owe them much.

I agree. I've only met two other people who've gone nc with their parents irl and I know plenty who complain about their families.

Neither gave details but tbh its not necessary. There was a sort of unspoken understanding not to share, not to discuss. That's when you know it's 'real'. Because it's too painful and far to big to talk about.

I have had people who have common or garden family issues probe and ask why or suggest that some of my problems might be resolved if I were to make amends with my mother. Usually, saying she brought the police and social services into our lives and I was at risk of losing my children if I'd stayed in contact is enough. People don't want to know the details then anyway.

In reality, most people try and put things right or change things and sort them out for years before going nc. Other people's first assumption is that you're dramatic or childish or you are the problem if you've made that move. That if you just talked to them and made an effort, you could put things right. You don't even realise how bad it is until you're well into adulthood.

As an adult, my mother deliberately sabotaged me, lied about me to authorities, tried to get social workers involved in my children's lives (oh the irony) because because I was an unfit mother, phoned my husband when she knew I was out to lie and try and sabotage my marriage. She was neglectful of my children (eg she once offered to pick my 5yr old son up from school (because I had a meeting in the evening) and delivered him home later than agreed at 9pm having not fed him because her partner hadn't arrived home from work and she'd felt it was important that they only eat together as a family). When I was a teenager, she locked me in the house so I couldn't meet friends, would contact them and cancel.plans I had made telling them I'd been naughty when (in reality) I was terrified of putting a foot wrong and never did anything I wasn't allowed to do but I always found myself in trouble because everything I did was wrong. After my parents split up, she screamed at me in public that I was "the whore who drove your father into the arms of another woman."

I overheard her when I was about 13 telling her friend on the phone that she didn't know what to do with me because I was out at the park drinking and having sex with boys as i always was. I never went to the park in question precisely because it was full of teenagers drinking and I was scared of them. I didn't drink until I was 18 and was nearly 20 before I had sex. I wasn't even out of the house because I could hear her. So there wasn't even a hint of truth in the lies she told about me.

In between these things, I'd tried to invite her round for dinner, arranged weekends away for us, days out. Tried having conversations with her. Was supportive when others weren't. Cared for her post operatively when she needed help.

In her/our/my case, events (i now understand) had caused her to have severe PND and rather than understand it was hormonal/circumstantial, she'd decided it was because she'd been cursed with an undeserving and unloveable child. She refused to seek any kind of therapy and she basically spent my life punishing me for my existence. She was a very complex woman with some very deep seated and complex issues. She managed to create a narrative about me from the age of about 3 that she was my victim and she rewrote and reframed everything I ever did as an attack against her. There was a complete fantasy version of me in her head that didn't match the reality of who I was in any way.

I'm very lucky that I'm still here and as functional as I am. She called the police on me when I was 10 and told them I was 'brandishing' a screwdriver at her and threatening her with it. I wasn't. She encouraged my brother to bang on my bedroom door and threaten me while holding a knife and then told me i was lucky she hadnt let him in. She locked me in the back garden barefoot and wearing a nightie in the snow. She used to get 'flashing eyes' as we called it. And there was no pulling punches when that happened. She enjoyed the cruelty.

And that's just a snapshot of 34 years of abuse. Christmases, holidays, birthdays, weekends, random days in the week... they were all marred by her behaviour towards me for 34 years.

But if I had posted on here about any of the incidents in adulthood, there would have been people who told me I just needed boundaries. You can have all the boundaries you like but they only work if other people respect them. Boundaries are about deciding what your line in the sand is they're not about controlling other people. If someone doesn't recognise or respect your boundaries and has no intention of doing so, there is nothing you can do about it.

There's a level of skill and empathy that comes from dealing with difficult people and often difficult people hurt others because they have been hurt or are hurting.

Ah that's it. As a 3 year old, I just didn’t have the skillset nor the empathy as an adult to deal with her 🙄

Bex5490

I think it's hard in your shoes because it isn't as black and white. You, presumably, all remember a time when she wasn't a drug addict so you remember the 'before' person and that is who you care about?

I also agree with you that it's different when it's parents. Your parents are the people who teach you about your place in world, your worth, your value etc. Its where you understand what is 'normal' from.

If your parents were the ones who punished your for expressing your needs, for having emotions, for your developing sense of self it's very destabilising. Your brain becomes wired completely differently. You have to recogonise that has happened before you can even begin to untangle it all.

Eg I was brought up to believe that saying no was wrong. In all circumstances. Eg a big one was that it was rude to say no to men who asked for sex. It was your 'fault' if they wanted sex with you and it was wrong of you to deny it. I'm now 50 and I was well into my 30s before I knew/believed i could say no to sex with someone. And it took another few years to be able to really do it. Even now, I find it hard.

When you've never been allowed to say no and been taught that it's wrong and punished for it, it's very difficult as an adult to just start doing it and nowhere near as easy as some posters suggest. Again an eg your parents teach you your name, how to cross the road, how to get dressed, how to use cutlery, the names of colours etc. If they are also teaching you at the same time that you don't matter, that you should never say no, that you should always do as your told. Why would you question that? You don't question anything else your parents teach you.

It takes years of therapy to undo the damage caused.

The bottom line for me is that unless you've actually lived it, it's near impossible to imagine the damage that is caused.

What might seem like a petty thing to others (and I always type my experiences thinking someone would consider that example petty) can be just the latest in a long line of shit.

We had to put boundaries in place with my (now ex) husband's family because his parents are functioning alcoholics. But they followed every single one. They weren't perfect but a relationship with them was possible.

Trying to put boundaries in place with my mother unleashed a moster and she would bite back harder. Her behaviours just escalated (eg trying to get ss involved because I was a bad mother).

Very few people have no idea why they have been ghosted. The very fact that you yourself were advised to cut Z out of your life, and that you sought advice on Z’s behaviour, suggests you are aware there is a problem, even if you have made the decision to maintain a relationship with Z.

You listened to advice and made a decision that went against that advice, which is perfectly fine. Advice isn’t an order. But it’s disingenuous to suggest poor old Z has been dropped because “It’s the modern way 😔” when their behaviour has been problematic enough for you to seek advice from strangers.

I totally disagree OP.

The majority of people go no contact with a relative/relatives with very good reasons.

Usually it is because the relative displays abusive/inappropriate behaviour towards the person who goes no contact or they have a toxic lifestyle (drug/alcohol abuse or going through the criminal justice system).

Being related to someone does not mean you must have them in your life no matter what.

I actually think it is a healthy step that more people are realising that.

Women especially historically were always groomed to keep the peace and put up with appalling behaviour to maintain the appearance of a 'happy family'.

A family member is just someone you happen to be related to. It does not make them a decent person or means you need to interact with them.

Most people usually agree that a woman in an abusive marriage/relationship should absolutely leave the person so why should it be any different if the toxic behaviour comes from a relative?