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Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Should Labour abolish the two child benefit cap?

1000 replies

changefromhr · 12/07/2024 07:48

In two minds about this. Yes for those who find themselves on benefits after having more than two children (job loss, divorce etc) but perhaps not for those who choose to have more than two children when they have never worked (disabled families excepted).

https://www.theguardian.com/society/article/2024/jul/11/uk-two-child-benefit-cap-affected-1-6-million-children-last-year-figures-show

Labour pressed to end two-child benefit cap with 1.6m youngsters affected

Campaigners say figure is shameful and that Tory policy is single biggest driver of child poverty

https://www.theguardian.com/society/article/2024/jul/11/uk-two-child-benefit-cap-affected-1-6-million-children-last-year-figures-show

OP posts:
Alexandra2001 · 16/07/2024 23:10

parkrun500club · 16/07/2024 12:36

Childcare expenses allow you to work and contribute to the overall financial pot.

Benefits are just there for having children.

That's the difference.

I think there should be an incentive and reward for work, especially women, as I think it's better for mums to work and not be reliant on men. Rather than just saying "oh you've had a child, here is some free money". No, quality childcare, education and healthcare are much better ways to spend taxpayers' money.

Whats the difference?

If you don't support benefits for having children, why support them for childcare?

The argument can be made "If you cannot go out to work without needing tax payers money, don't have children"

Personally, i don't think tax payers money should be given for either, wages should be higher instead.

strawberrybubblegum · 17/07/2024 06:14

Twolittleloves · 16/07/2024 22:53

Definitely! I really don't understand why this is not how the system works....I work with disadvantaged families and have witnessed so many times the essentials not being provided despite them getting enough benefit money to afford these, and the money instead being spent on the extras (or drugs/alcohol) then they go down to the food banks!

I think you then end up with a 'black market' with people reselling vouchers for (less) cash and buying what they want anyway. And it's harder/more costly to administer.

It's better if you can arrange direct provision of what's needed for free. Things like free school meals are great - since you already have the kids there at school. Starmer's plan to do breakfast clubs could also be good: although I have some doubts about people getting their kids there in time. I wonder whether handing out a free break-time snack might actually work better. A way to add to that would be to fund some free holiday club provision for kids with fsm, and include food with that. That would be expensive, but would not only reduce hunger during holidays but also probably reduce the holiday knowledge loss that disadvantaged kids often experience. And parents would probably be keen if it gave them a break during the day.

notbelieved · 17/07/2024 08:29

Crumpleton · 16/07/2024 20:32

Ah, I see...people who can actually afford to financially support having children then.

Wow.

notbelieved · 17/07/2024 08:33

Twolittleloves · 16/07/2024 22:53

Definitely! I really don't understand why this is not how the system works....I work with disadvantaged families and have witnessed so many times the essentials not being provided despite them getting enough benefit money to afford these, and the money instead being spent on the extras (or drugs/alcohol) then they go down to the food banks!

As explained, I was on tax credits for years. I manage my budget perfectly well, thanks. No need to infantalise me.

Vouchers are not acceptable because they can't take into account fluctuations in people's needs. Sometimes shit happens snd you need to go to the hospital everyday for a week, for example, so you need cash for the bus. You find the cash by cutting g down on your supermarket shop. Only you can't use your supermarket vouchers on the bus....

AllyCart · 17/07/2024 09:17

Vouchers are not acceptable because they can't take into account fluctuations in people's needs. Sometimes shit happens snd you need to go to the hospital everyday for a week, for example, so you need cash for the bus. You find the cash by cutting g down on your supermarket shop. Only you can't use your supermarket vouchers on the bus....

This is a very good point.

Skskdkdk · 17/07/2024 11:04

notbelieved · 17/07/2024 08:33

As explained, I was on tax credits for years. I manage my budget perfectly well, thanks. No need to infantalise me.

Vouchers are not acceptable because they can't take into account fluctuations in people's needs. Sometimes shit happens snd you need to go to the hospital everyday for a week, for example, so you need cash for the bus. You find the cash by cutting g down on your supermarket shop. Only you can't use your supermarket vouchers on the bus....

Yeah, very good point. There are those who waste the money and there are those who are responsible and adjust their budgets when shit happens and vouchers wouldn’t allow them to do that. Maybe a mix of cash and vouchers is needed? Directly paying energy bills (e.g) and cash for general budgeting?

benefits are a life line In a civilised society - I don’t want to scrap them, but want to be able to give more to where needed.

A previous poster mentioned higher wages as a solution, - now that would be wonderful and should definitely be the aim. But in the mean time, the safety net needs to be there but should not be used as a hammock, as it undoubtedly is used in this way by some.

strawberrybubblegum · 17/07/2024 11:05

notbelieved · 17/07/2024 08:33

As explained, I was on tax credits for years. I manage my budget perfectly well, thanks. No need to infantalise me.

Vouchers are not acceptable because they can't take into account fluctuations in people's needs. Sometimes shit happens snd you need to go to the hospital everyday for a week, for example, so you need cash for the bus. You find the cash by cutting g down on your supermarket shop. Only you can't use your supermarket vouchers on the bus....

That's very true about the flexibility. Also flexibility to buy from the cheaper or more accessible place, which may not be possible with a voucher scheme.

As a general rule, it's most effective for each individual to choose their spending according to their own priorities. That's how economics works.

But there is the very specific situation that this is tax money which the state has specifically earmarked to support the needs of the children not the adults. Although we usually trust parents to manage their children's best interests - and I'm sure you did - unfortunately not all parents prioritise that way.

It's in that situation that giving benefits in kind - like free school lunches - directly to the children can be effective. It does take more administration though.

Skskdkdk · 17/07/2024 11:10

Just on the “vouchers are a bad idea” point.. wanted to add that the system would be open to abuse even before you consider any kind of black market.. when growing up, we had vouchers for school uniform. The vouchers could only be redeemed in a specific independent shop where a cardi and a skirt would cost £60 plus for an 8 year old!! I don’t need to tell MNers what you can get with that £60 in Asda!

Skskdkdk · 17/07/2024 11:15

notbelieved · 17/07/2024 08:29

Wow.

Surely this is a joke??

Any child can grow up to discover the cure for cancer in a functioning society.

notbelieved · 17/07/2024 11:22

Maybe a mix of cash and vouchers is needed? Directly paying energy bills (e.g) and cash for general budgeting?

The energy needs of insividual households are not the same....some people like tropical, others like Arctic. Some live in draughty old property with poor insulation on the tops of cliffs, others in modern property. Again, we work our budgets accordingly, allowing us flexibility in other areas of our lives.

All vouchers do is punish those - who I suspect are a majority - who can manage a budget. Moreover, the lack of flexibility with vouchers could easily cause financial problems for those who manage cash well.

strawberrybubblegum · 17/07/2024 11:38

notbelieved · 17/07/2024 11:22

Maybe a mix of cash and vouchers is needed? Directly paying energy bills (e.g) and cash for general budgeting?

The energy needs of insividual households are not the same....some people like tropical, others like Arctic. Some live in draughty old property with poor insulation on the tops of cliffs, others in modern property. Again, we work our budgets accordingly, allowing us flexibility in other areas of our lives.

All vouchers do is punish those - who I suspect are a majority - who can manage a budget. Moreover, the lack of flexibility with vouchers could easily cause financial problems for those who manage cash well.

Not all families budget well and prioritise their children. For those who don't, how do you propose ensuring that those vulnerable children do get the basics which that tax money is intended for?

WanOvaryKenobi · 17/07/2024 12:30

I think people forget just how much families who choose to not work are subsidised.

I'll give you an example. DH has a friend who is in his forties. He has never really managed to hold a job for longer than 3 - 6 months, has dropped out of multiple courses, and received multiple handouts from the state, family, and friends (including offers of house deposits, employment training, and living abroad). He doesn't lack opportunities or ability, not at all, he's just lazy and would rather spend his life on the dole, smoking weed, and fantasising about business ventures that he expects everybody else to fund and do the work for. Your common-or-garden scrounging waster.

He meets a bird. She already has a council flat because she got pregnant at 18 and has a kid. Great, he can just move in. They decide to have a family. They are both on the dole and have two kids back-to-back while on the dole. They get given a new build 3 bed house because her now her wee council flat she got for having a baby as a teenager isn't big enough for the next two kids she has in her twenties.

Now, I have this controversial viewpoint that people have a moral duty to try and provide for their children as best they can. People can disagree.

But when I think of how much tax my husband and I have paid to fund an extended maternity leave that will last for years, their rent every month, every joint they have smoked, the building of their new house, literally the shirts on every member of that family's back - all of it. It actually sickens me. We both work hard and have budgeted extensively so we can afford one child because we care deeply about providing the best environment.

They, on the other hand, have chosen to do nothing to provide for their family or to better their situation. They fully expect - and have the audacity to demand - that their entire family is paid for by the state.

Why are the middle class expected to be sensible but nobody else? Do we think "certain" people are inherently unable to understand the fundamentals of contraception and budgeting? If yes, isn't that offensive? If not, are we putting systems in place to provide that education? Or is it to do with an element of life expectation? In which case - I am perfectly, perfectly happy to put an end to any expectation in this society that you are entitled to have your entire family funded for by the state just because you personally choose not to work. It's an abhorrent attitude.

This is not about luck, or circumstance, or tragedy, or anything else. For many this is fundamentally a lifestyle choice. And there's no point complaining about the low birth rate and society/the economy because I count two economically inactive non-tax paying people having three children that due to lifestyle factors, poor parental education and expectations are extremely unlikely to be productive members of society. It is far more likely that by the time I retire out of our two households my sole child will be paying the tax burden for four retired people (my husband, myself, and this couple) and three people on the dole (this couple's kids). Throw in a few grandkids as well because why not.

This is also deeply unfair and feels punitive to people who work hard in life, succeed, and plan families responsibly. There is no help for you, most of my income when I go back to work will be spent on childcare and tax. I am going back to work to afford childcare to fund another woman who chooses to stay at home.

And in this economy, where so many people are working their fingers to the bone, and where both state and family funds are running low - I don't think we have any moral obligation to fund this lifestyle expectation that you can have a family and choose not to work. Contraception is readily available and free. Accidents happen and so do abortions. You have a choice of who you have children with - all these men on the dole who don't pay up? Well, somebody is shagging them too!

So I'm quite happy for that extra bit of money to not go into a couple's drink/drugs/nonsense personal spending account and for it directly to go to breakfast clubs, after-school clubs, uniforms, childcare during the holidays, etc. Then I might actually see some direct benefit myself for all of the tax my household pays.

Bunnyasmyname · 17/07/2024 12:38

strawberrybubblegum · 17/07/2024 11:38

Not all families budget well and prioritise their children. For those who don't, how do you propose ensuring that those vulnerable children do get the basics which that tax money is intended for?

True. I don't. After all I go out to work to earn just a little bit more than I would on UC.

From many remarks on this thread, if I prioritised my kids I'd be at home with them on benefits.

Admittedly I do why I bother sometimes now as the latest is my benefit topped up neighbour is getting a free new boiler and insulation in her mortgaged home whereas I'd have to pay.

suburburban · 17/07/2024 12:39

I know

It isn't right

Leah5678 · 17/07/2024 12:53

WanOvaryKenobi · 17/07/2024 12:30

I think people forget just how much families who choose to not work are subsidised.

I'll give you an example. DH has a friend who is in his forties. He has never really managed to hold a job for longer than 3 - 6 months, has dropped out of multiple courses, and received multiple handouts from the state, family, and friends (including offers of house deposits, employment training, and living abroad). He doesn't lack opportunities or ability, not at all, he's just lazy and would rather spend his life on the dole, smoking weed, and fantasising about business ventures that he expects everybody else to fund and do the work for. Your common-or-garden scrounging waster.

He meets a bird. She already has a council flat because she got pregnant at 18 and has a kid. Great, he can just move in. They decide to have a family. They are both on the dole and have two kids back-to-back while on the dole. They get given a new build 3 bed house because her now her wee council flat she got for having a baby as a teenager isn't big enough for the next two kids she has in her twenties.

Now, I have this controversial viewpoint that people have a moral duty to try and provide for their children as best they can. People can disagree.

But when I think of how much tax my husband and I have paid to fund an extended maternity leave that will last for years, their rent every month, every joint they have smoked, the building of their new house, literally the shirts on every member of that family's back - all of it. It actually sickens me. We both work hard and have budgeted extensively so we can afford one child because we care deeply about providing the best environment.

They, on the other hand, have chosen to do nothing to provide for their family or to better their situation. They fully expect - and have the audacity to demand - that their entire family is paid for by the state.

Why are the middle class expected to be sensible but nobody else? Do we think "certain" people are inherently unable to understand the fundamentals of contraception and budgeting? If yes, isn't that offensive? If not, are we putting systems in place to provide that education? Or is it to do with an element of life expectation? In which case - I am perfectly, perfectly happy to put an end to any expectation in this society that you are entitled to have your entire family funded for by the state just because you personally choose not to work. It's an abhorrent attitude.

This is not about luck, or circumstance, or tragedy, or anything else. For many this is fundamentally a lifestyle choice. And there's no point complaining about the low birth rate and society/the economy because I count two economically inactive non-tax paying people having three children that due to lifestyle factors, poor parental education and expectations are extremely unlikely to be productive members of society. It is far more likely that by the time I retire out of our two households my sole child will be paying the tax burden for four retired people (my husband, myself, and this couple) and three people on the dole (this couple's kids). Throw in a few grandkids as well because why not.

This is also deeply unfair and feels punitive to people who work hard in life, succeed, and plan families responsibly. There is no help for you, most of my income when I go back to work will be spent on childcare and tax. I am going back to work to afford childcare to fund another woman who chooses to stay at home.

And in this economy, where so many people are working their fingers to the bone, and where both state and family funds are running low - I don't think we have any moral obligation to fund this lifestyle expectation that you can have a family and choose not to work. Contraception is readily available and free. Accidents happen and so do abortions. You have a choice of who you have children with - all these men on the dole who don't pay up? Well, somebody is shagging them too!

So I'm quite happy for that extra bit of money to not go into a couple's drink/drugs/nonsense personal spending account and for it directly to go to breakfast clubs, after-school clubs, uniforms, childcare during the holidays, etc. Then I might actually see some direct benefit myself for all of the tax my household pays.

I completely understand the sentiment I look at some individuals and think the exact same thing. Like really my taxes are funding THAT

The dusty lazy bum in his 40s going after a girl less than half his age and moving into her home is very gross imo.
Just wanted to add I don't agree with the sentiment that every giro that gets pregnant young gets a free house from the council because I was pregnant at 16 and certainly never got one (would have been pretty nice if I had though can't lie 😂)

WanOvaryKenobi · 17/07/2024 12:59

Leah5678 · 17/07/2024 12:53

I completely understand the sentiment I look at some individuals and think the exact same thing. Like really my taxes are funding THAT

The dusty lazy bum in his 40s going after a girl less than half his age and moving into her home is very gross imo.
Just wanted to add I don't agree with the sentiment that every giro that gets pregnant young gets a free house from the council because I was pregnant at 16 and certainly never got one (would have been pretty nice if I had though can't lie 😂)

And a woman who is supposedly a responsible parent moving in a random stoner she's known a few weeks who doesn't work then choosing to procreate with him - also extremely gross.

Leah5678 · 17/07/2024 13:01

WanOvaryKenobi · 17/07/2024 12:59

And a woman who is supposedly a responsible parent moving in a random stoner she's known a few weeks who doesn't work then choosing to procreate with him - also extremely gross.

Yeah makes you wonder what the hell she sees in him

AllyCart · 17/07/2024 13:05

Leah5678 · 17/07/2024 12:53

I completely understand the sentiment I look at some individuals and think the exact same thing. Like really my taxes are funding THAT

The dusty lazy bum in his 40s going after a girl less than half his age and moving into her home is very gross imo.
Just wanted to add I don't agree with the sentiment that every giro that gets pregnant young gets a free house from the council because I was pregnant at 16 and certainly never got one (would have been pretty nice if I had though can't lie 😂)

I don't think the post meant that the female lazy scrounger that the male lazy scrounger moved in with is 18 now.

SummerSnowstorm · 17/07/2024 13:12

WanOvaryKenobi · 17/07/2024 12:30

I think people forget just how much families who choose to not work are subsidised.

I'll give you an example. DH has a friend who is in his forties. He has never really managed to hold a job for longer than 3 - 6 months, has dropped out of multiple courses, and received multiple handouts from the state, family, and friends (including offers of house deposits, employment training, and living abroad). He doesn't lack opportunities or ability, not at all, he's just lazy and would rather spend his life on the dole, smoking weed, and fantasising about business ventures that he expects everybody else to fund and do the work for. Your common-or-garden scrounging waster.

He meets a bird. She already has a council flat because she got pregnant at 18 and has a kid. Great, he can just move in. They decide to have a family. They are both on the dole and have two kids back-to-back while on the dole. They get given a new build 3 bed house because her now her wee council flat she got for having a baby as a teenager isn't big enough for the next two kids she has in her twenties.

Now, I have this controversial viewpoint that people have a moral duty to try and provide for their children as best they can. People can disagree.

But when I think of how much tax my husband and I have paid to fund an extended maternity leave that will last for years, their rent every month, every joint they have smoked, the building of their new house, literally the shirts on every member of that family's back - all of it. It actually sickens me. We both work hard and have budgeted extensively so we can afford one child because we care deeply about providing the best environment.

They, on the other hand, have chosen to do nothing to provide for their family or to better their situation. They fully expect - and have the audacity to demand - that their entire family is paid for by the state.

Why are the middle class expected to be sensible but nobody else? Do we think "certain" people are inherently unable to understand the fundamentals of contraception and budgeting? If yes, isn't that offensive? If not, are we putting systems in place to provide that education? Or is it to do with an element of life expectation? In which case - I am perfectly, perfectly happy to put an end to any expectation in this society that you are entitled to have your entire family funded for by the state just because you personally choose not to work. It's an abhorrent attitude.

This is not about luck, or circumstance, or tragedy, or anything else. For many this is fundamentally a lifestyle choice. And there's no point complaining about the low birth rate and society/the economy because I count two economically inactive non-tax paying people having three children that due to lifestyle factors, poor parental education and expectations are extremely unlikely to be productive members of society. It is far more likely that by the time I retire out of our two households my sole child will be paying the tax burden for four retired people (my husband, myself, and this couple) and three people on the dole (this couple's kids). Throw in a few grandkids as well because why not.

This is also deeply unfair and feels punitive to people who work hard in life, succeed, and plan families responsibly. There is no help for you, most of my income when I go back to work will be spent on childcare and tax. I am going back to work to afford childcare to fund another woman who chooses to stay at home.

And in this economy, where so many people are working their fingers to the bone, and where both state and family funds are running low - I don't think we have any moral obligation to fund this lifestyle expectation that you can have a family and choose not to work. Contraception is readily available and free. Accidents happen and so do abortions. You have a choice of who you have children with - all these men on the dole who don't pay up? Well, somebody is shagging them too!

So I'm quite happy for that extra bit of money to not go into a couple's drink/drugs/nonsense personal spending account and for it directly to go to breakfast clubs, after-school clubs, uniforms, childcare during the holidays, etc. Then I might actually see some direct benefit myself for all of the tax my household pays.

You are forgetting who is important in this. Those children didn't choose to be born into that family, and are already hugely disadvantaged. The more their useless parents are supported the better chance they have of having better outcomes and not going the same way.

Yes we could as a country refuse to support children like that, but I don't think anyone actually wants those children in even worse living conditions or lacking food, the anger is at the parents.
And we could alternatively take the children away because the parents can't financially provide for them, and hope to find foster carers, but their outcomes would again be worse and it would ultimately cost far more.
Short of forced sterilisation there's not much we can do other than pay taxes towards those children, without morally crossing a line.

suburburban · 17/07/2024 13:15

What I don't understand is how the people described are not made to look for work and sanctioned if they don't attend a meeting face to face or online or has this all gone out the window

Perhaps it needs reintroducing

Leah5678 · 17/07/2024 13:17

AllyCart · 17/07/2024 13:05

I don't think the post meant that the female lazy scrounger that the male lazy scrounger moved in with is 18 now.

Maybe not but they had their next two children when she was in her twenties. Obviously not illegal or a huge deal and there's a lot worse going on out there but I just personally think it's a little weird.
Never having worked a proper job and being in his forties is also a red flag
I don't want to detail the thread though

WanOvaryKenobi · 17/07/2024 13:21

SummerSnowstorm · 17/07/2024 13:12

You are forgetting who is important in this. Those children didn't choose to be born into that family, and are already hugely disadvantaged. The more their useless parents are supported the better chance they have of having better outcomes and not going the same way.

Yes we could as a country refuse to support children like that, but I don't think anyone actually wants those children in even worse living conditions or lacking food, the anger is at the parents.
And we could alternatively take the children away because the parents can't financially provide for them, and hope to find foster carers, but their outcomes would again be worse and it would ultimately cost far more.
Short of forced sterilisation there's not much we can do other than pay taxes towards those children, without morally crossing a line.

I addressed this explicitly at the end of my comment. Use the funds saved and provide breakfast, after school, and holiday clubs. Stop giving handouts to eejit irresponsible parents and create systems that encourage people to work - things everyone can use and benefit from.

I would rather my taxes went to systems we can all benefit from and will help the underclass of society as well as the functional members. That is better than a few quid in a bank account in the hands of the same irresponsible shits that can't be bothered to think about their families in the first place but expect everyone else too. With them any money it is just as likely to be spent on bullshit as it is to be spent on a child.

Beth216 · 17/07/2024 13:26

SummerSnowstorm · 17/07/2024 13:12

You are forgetting who is important in this. Those children didn't choose to be born into that family, and are already hugely disadvantaged. The more their useless parents are supported the better chance they have of having better outcomes and not going the same way.

Yes we could as a country refuse to support children like that, but I don't think anyone actually wants those children in even worse living conditions or lacking food, the anger is at the parents.
And we could alternatively take the children away because the parents can't financially provide for them, and hope to find foster carers, but their outcomes would again be worse and it would ultimately cost far more.
Short of forced sterilisation there's not much we can do other than pay taxes towards those children, without morally crossing a line.

I don't agree that the best way to support those children is to give their feckless parents more money to spend.

I'd like to see more money spent on providing excellent childcare, nutritious school meals, parenting classes, family hubs, mental health support for children and adults, youth clubs etc. There are much better ways to help these kids than to give their parents more money and just hope and pray they will suddenly start making good choices.

DragonFly98 · 17/07/2024 13:28

WanOvaryKenobi · 17/07/2024 13:21

I addressed this explicitly at the end of my comment. Use the funds saved and provide breakfast, after school, and holiday clubs. Stop giving handouts to eejit irresponsible parents and create systems that encourage people to work - things everyone can use and benefit from.

I would rather my taxes went to systems we can all benefit from and will help the underclass of society as well as the functional members. That is better than a few quid in a bank account in the hands of the same irresponsible shits that can't be bothered to think about their families in the first place but expect everyone else too. With them any money it is just as likely to be spent on bullshit as it is to be spent on a child.

Attitudes like yours are appalling, poor does not equal feckless. Those children may well already be accessing clubs. They may also be unable to attend such clubs due to disability or they parents may be unable to work,

ichundich · 17/07/2024 13:29

Agree with PP's that any money should instead go to better education and healthcare services, e.g.:

  • reopen Sure Start centres
  • free dentistry for all
  • speech and language therapists
  • family cooking and budgeting lessons
  • free financial advice
  • libraries
  • better and cheaper public transport
  • free holiday clubs
  • addiction support
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