To wonder why it's so controversial to talk about white behaviour throughout history?

[BeachParty]

It's an interesting discussion to have, and makes you think.
Why do so many immediately go into "how dare you!" mode or "why are you being racist towards white people?!"
Instead of actually listening to what people are saying? History is whitewashed in this country, we usually learn it from a "hero" viewpoint.

Exactly. Slave trading is wrong and clearly Britain and other European countries made a lot of money from it over an extended period of time which was also wrong.

But there isn't a genetic mutation that goes with having white skin that turns you into a slave trader so this isn't white behaviour or white history.

I feel like this is a way of viewing the world we have imported from the US. It has led to confusion like Diane Abbott saying that Jewish people can't experience racism because they are white (even though Jews were persecuted in Europe for hundreds of years) because everything is viewed in relation to US history.

I feel like this is a way of viewing the world we have imported from the US. It has led to confusion like Diane Abbott saying that Jewish people can't experience racism because they are white (even though Jews were persecuted in Europe for hundreds of years)

Oh don't get me started. I like DA. She has a long history of achievement. That was an absolutely needless trap for her to waltz into.

A genuine question and not a denial at all of the atrocities Jews have faced or face currently.

Why is prejudice against Jewish (or Muslim) people considered racism rather than xenophobic when there are Jews and Muslims of so many races?

Why is prejudice against Jewish (or Muslim) people considered racism rather than xenophobic when there are Jews and Muslims of so many races?

Judaism/Jewishness considers itself a race as well as a religion. It has different branches, but it's an inherited identity. There is suggestion in Judaism that you should convert people into Judaism, for example, because Jewish law views Jews & Judaism as a "chosen people" not a belief system.

So that's what anti-semitism is a form of racism. Also demonstrated by the fact that organised anti-senitism (Nazis, Ku Klux Klan etc) don't care whether Jews are religious either - they're hung up on heredity.

I'll let someone else address the Islam part of the question as I'm not quite as sure of the details.

Correction.

That should be "there is NO requirement in Judaism to convert people in" (or however I phrased it).

I mean - yes, the present is impacted by the past - but the African slave trade in Africa is also responsible for today's situation. That's the thing, it wasn't a trade that was only controlled by white Europeans. It was controlled by wealthy Africans and wealthy Europeans to send people to the Americas, or in the east, to the Middle East.

You can go to Africa today and the tribal conflicts and relations that were behind the slave trade, and the class differences, have incredible impacts on people there. The idea that this is unique to the US is quite a narrow perspective. There are still people in Africa who look down on their neighbours, because their ancestors enslaved their neighbours ancestors. You can see this among people in India, or Asia, even the people of New Zealand had their own pre-existing class hierarchies.

The other element here is that this kind of situation is not actually unique to black people. You can look at migrations within Europe, and class differences, and these too are related to things like past migrations and invasions. Poor white people today are in many cases poor because their ancestors were poor and oppressed, by people from some other group.

You can also find that in many cases, especially here there was already a fairly developed social and political culture, when the British came to a place, often looking for trade relations, the people there were keen to use the British not only to increase their own wealth through trade, but to gain allies against their enemies. They had agency, and goals of their own, and conflicts of their own. There wasn't some kind of blank slate.

No one wants to deny the history of the UK, but it's one part in a much larger history of peoples with their own goals and historical arcs. And not generally especially better or worse, although it did, uniquely, abolish slavery for ideological reasons, and attempt to stop the trade of slaves outside of their own country.

Thanks - I get that Judaism exists as an inherited identity so lots of people consider themselves Jewish but not religiously.

Interesting.

Most ridiculous post I've seen...

All I was taught at school was how evil white countries where in history and how all white people have privilege ...

Well I don't think race is a particularly clear concept scientifically speaking. Genetically humans are all quite similar to one another in comparison to other animals and most genetic variation occurs within populations in Africa (who would be considered one group according to the desire held by some people on this thread to divide history by skin tone)

I suppose the treatment of Jews in Europe is considered racism because much of their persecution was done on that basis. So the Nazis considered Jewish people to be a separate race and it was of no interest to them whether or not a given Jewish person practiced their religion or not only how ethnically Jewish they were based on their number of Jewish grandparents.

Same thing with how Israel is genociding Palestinions....

Yes this is an important part of why Britain, which is a pretty small and not very populated country was able to operate as it did; money and commerce. The desire for money cuts across all people. It is the money that enabled the English city sponsored companies to even start the process of Empire. It’s making money not just for those companies but local power too. Later Britain becomes obsessive about “white man’s burden” and “moral improvement” with a harsh military edge. But the initial offer? Money. It’s the easiest route to power there is and everyone wants some.

There wouldn’t be generations of traumatised black families.

There wouldn’t be hundreds of thousands of black Americans who don’t even know which country they’re originally from.

Slavery was ended in 1807 in the UK and was abolished in America in 1865, We have around 7 generations pass in America and 9 in the UK. I'd challenge most of us to say who our great great great great great grandparents were and where they originated from.

I think what is infuriating for black people (although I can only speak for myself) is the denial of the racism that was created by transatlantic slavery.

I don’t think slavery was itself motivated by racism - like you said it was motivated by money. But the result was lots of black people in originally white countries who were seen and treated as less than white people.

In order to justify the history, black people were criminalised, portrayed as aggressive, over sexualised etc etc.

Maybe as someone proudly from an African country with a rich history and culture, I find it sad that some don’t have that because of slavery.

I think what is infuriating for black people (although I can only speak for myself) is the denial of the racism that was created by transatlantic slavery.

I don’t think slavery was itself motivated by racism - like you said it was motivated by money. But the result was lots of black people in originally white countries who were seen and treated as less than white people.

In order to justify the history, black people were criminalised, portrayed as aggressive, over sexualised etc etc.

I've never personally heard anyone deny it, so I'm not sure what that looks like, but I'm sure it happens.

I like to think that black history week and movements around that have now embedded those issues in school history teaching and understanding is getting better with every new year of children that pass through schools. My children and their friends all seem really aware.

If you don't know your ancestors then you cannot mourn what you never had. I could find my forebearers were royalty but not from the current line (a distinct possibility) or I could find they were marauding murderers who stole from the poor (another distinct possibility depending if I look through my mother or fathers line).

Would you be as proud of your heritage if you did find that eg you were descended from an African tribe leader who was renowned for capturing slaves from other tribes?

What if you found your great x 5 granny was actually the secret lover of plantation owner and treated the other blacks like crap?

Can’t say I love being referred to as ‘the blacks’ rather than black people but anyway…

It’s not about who the individual great grandparent was. It’s about the cultural identity.

Does your parent’s job/personality/choices affect how you feel about your nationality? Like if you hate your mum does that make you not proud to be English/ Irish/ Swedish or whatever else? Probs not.

Lots of people definitely still deny it. I’ve been told on numerous occasions that racism in England doesn’t exist anymore and that black people should just get over it because it’s in the past.

I agree that things are definitely improving though with each generation.

People still have ingrained unconscious bias but generally people are more aware of it so it is getting better I would say.

Can’t say I love being referred to as ‘the blacks’ rather than black people but anyway…

TBH, that's how "black behaviour" and "white behaviour" land with me too. Depersonalised and boiling everything down to race or ethnicity (actually skin colour - even sloppier).

I agree.

Is that not true? I've seen the statistics from America and African Americans are massively over represented in most crimes.

52% of murders in USA are committed by African American males....
African Americans make up 13% of the nation. half that and 6.5% of responsible for committing over half murders in USA.

Why do you think that is?

Firstly if you want to go through my past posts you will find I have described white people as whites also. You are finding racism where there is none. I cannot personalise somebody who has been dead for 180 years.

I identify myself as Scottish and British, Just the same as a black man born and bred in Hackney is English and British, or in Belfast as N Irish and British. Why should my parents and more importantly given this discussion, my great (x5) grand parents job/personality/choice affect my nationality? I am me, nobody else.

I don't know why that is, can you tell us with actual proof if it is untrue?