To think this isn’t 3 hours of work?

[WWYDwiththisone]

We had a cleaner come to our new house purchase the other day to do a deep clean. Two of them came, charging £23 an hour each.

They were supposed to arrive at 2. They didn’t arrive until 3:25pm because they were ‘late’ from another cleaning job. They said they would stay until the work was done, yet told DH they needed to leave at 4:50 as they hadn’t eaten all day. They said they’d come back the following day but I told them we needed it that day really so we’d have to do it between myself, my mum and my sister

They did almost 1.5hrs of work each, 3 hours combined.

In that time; they cleaned an IKEA Pax wardrobe unit in one of the bedrooms, cleaned the walls in the bathroom, the bathroom sink and the bath. That is it. They left the toilet, they didn’t get round to the kitchen, or skirting boards, or vacuuming, or mopping.

They have now invoiced for £69.

I don’t see how it would take 2 people 1.5hrs to do the above. I’m pretty sure I could do it in 45 minutes.

AIBU to think that’s extremely bad value? What would you compromise if so?

I still disagree (it’s also my area of work).

I agree it can be difficult to prove subjectively what is worth it and what isn’t.. and for that hassle might be worth the OP just paying.

Perhaps you mean you can’t necessarily pay less due to quality of the work if they have indeed been working those hours, which I see your point. But I think the poster is saying they simply did not work those hours as not enough was done. I don’t think they just took three hours to physically do what was listed, they were probably just sat playing on their phone or chatting for most of it, in which case, I can’t see it’s reasonable you’d have to pay.
I don’t think the rate being lower than some other contracts changes the law on it either, but yes may make it not worth the fight,

I mean that if they stayed for the time they are charging, and work was done, then it's much, much harder to complain about the quality of / quantity of work done, than it is if nothing was done at all.

It could be they were not very attentive, and "playing with their phones".

OTOH, if your area of working is the cleaning industry, then you'll know as well as I do that cleaning a bath can be a broad spectrum, given the condition of it and the state it's in. Most baths on a regular clean can be cleaned with a damp cloth and some washing-up liquid, but where people have used bath-bombs & other delights, you can massively increase the time and effort factor.

Added to which, this isn't the OP's regular property - it's a new-to-them, and under these circumstances I've had to clean some right filthy baths, sometimes having to fill them with water & leave to soak with biological washing powder.

Point is, there are so many "if", "buts", and "maybes" surrounding the work.

I can see failings on both sides here (and if the cleaners didn't see the house before agreeing to clean it, then there's even more blame I would level at their door), but the the OP didn't fully agree what she'd be getting for certain either.

I suspect using cleaners may be new to the OP, and I'm even more sure than ever that the cleaning company is wet behind the ears.

If you’re paying them for hours worked I don’t see how you’d argue it tbh

@Amimaimia I must apologise as I didn't mention your excellent point of I don’t think the rate being lower than some other contracts changes the law on it either, but yes may make it not worth the fight.

What you have said is entirely correct; the price paid does not affect the right to complain in law, however, it does severely impede how practical something is to take forward.

I am reminded of a time (several years ago) when I was carrying out work for an organisation, totally separate from my cleaning service, and a member of the public emailed in to ask if someone could go out and perform an evaluation of the cleanliness of the property he'd been renting out, as he was very unhappy with the work done by professional cleaners, over a period of several years.

It transpired that the letting agent had arranged the cleaning, had deducted the fee from the rent they paid to their client (the person I was dealing with), and paid a cleaning company of the letting agent's choice to do the cleaning each week, in a property that was tenanted.

I remember having to tell this person that unfortunately, the first and by far biggest obstacle to overcome was the fact that the letting agent was the one who'd paid for the cleaning, and therefore it was them who the contract with. The fact that the agent then deducted the fee from the client was neither here nor there.

That aside, all I could say I could do was report on what I saw on the day of the visit - what I really needed to know was what state the place was in each time the cleaners went, as this would massively impact what was done, and furthermore, would need to know how much time was spent clearing up after the tenants as opposed to cleaning the building per-se, and how much time went on cleaning things the tenants took with them (such as vacuuming a tenants sofa rather than washing the landlords windows).

But not withstanding any of this, when I advised how much it was going to cost him to have a report complied, he rapidly realised none of it was worth the hassle, given the unlikleyhood of getting any money back. Interestingly, what was never in dispute in any of it was how long the cleaners had spent there - they were charging per-hour and he was happy with the evidence he had that they'd been going for the time charged for.

Is my understanding right that he was impeded from making a complaint by the high cost of a report being compiled? 😬 that would really not go down well in a Court (or in people’s opinions surely)

to the OP, even as a solicitor I can say sometimes people do the moral thing, I would speak to them and see what they have to say.

The part which impeded his case was the fact that he'd not paid for the cleaning, the letting agent had, and therefore the contract was between cleaning company and the agent.

His complaint about the cleaning would therefore have to be against the letting agent, as it was they who took the money off him for the cleaning service they'd arranged on his behalf.

If this were not the case, and he had paid for the cleaning directly, he would have been in a position legally to complain, though the fact that he'd allowed the service to be repeated for as long as he had before complaining about it wouldn't gone in his favour (we were talking a number of years in this case).

As for the report, the organisation I was carrying out work for was totally independent, and the fees quoted (I think around the £250 mark, this being at least six years ago) had to cover travel time, travel costs, and the person's time who visited. The organisation was very keen not to carry out such a report, given that the crucial factors to the complaint about the standards (as I mentioned previously) could not be proven, therefore was could be reported on would only be what he could see for himself. Added to which, the invoices had been based on the time spent on site, and he was happy with that side of it.

His eventual conclusion with me at least was that it wasn't worth the costs involved in making a complaint where the evidence to back it up was missing, with an acknowledgement that no matter how "bad" the property was now in terms of its cleanliness, one could only dread to think about how much worse it may have been had no one gone in to clean at all.

I understand the point of contract law.

but honestly, the rest of it just seems really sad.

Have you questioned with them the the amount of work done vs length of time they spent at your house? That's probably where I'd start

(edited for spelling )

Looking at it objectively, the person making the enquiry should have raised concerns a lot sooner. I accept it may not have been practical to have visited the property often, depending on all sorts of factors, but OTOH the cleaners reported to the letting agents, who were happy with what was being done.

Again as I've said before, the crucial part was knowing what the cleaners were walking into on each clean - I have and have had many clients where I clean their home, so to speak, that is to say I clean their "building", whereas with others it really is very much a case of I go into clean up "after" the client, and the "building" as is doesn't get that much attention.

Ultimately, if anyone is unhappy, they can complain to me about it, but above all they can very much ask me never to go back. I only ever charge for the work I do (a set price per client) never the time spent doing it, so if ever there's complaint about the quality of the work (and thank God in two decades I can count on one hand the complaints) it is much easier to pin-point & resolve.

Pay them. Don’t have them back and leave a 💩 review

That's ridiculous. My cleaner (who is amazing) does a decent clean of the (small) kitchen and bathroom, hoovers everywhere, mops hard floors, dusts the living room and cleans windows and mirrors in two hours. Three bed house.

When we have cover they usually manage everything except the windows.

@Thedayb4youcame the problem with charging for the work, not the time, in my experience, is that the work is done scrappily so they can leave quickly. Obviously you don't, but so many do, I promise you.

I agree, that can be / is seemingly a problem, when paying "per job".

Either pricing model has its flaws - you only have to look at the posts here from people who say cleaners left "early", and yet in some cases there was no complaint about the quality of the work.

Sometimes there are complaints about the quality of the work too.

There's fors and againsts everything, however, in the case of the OP I am very disappointed to think that the cleaning company didn't make it clear they would attend for X hours or would clean X number of things, as opposed to charging by the hour AND agreeing to get it all done. It cannot work both ways, and an established cleaning business would know this.

And again, OP should have capped the hours at the point of booking.

Unfortunately, domestic cleaning is very much a finger-in-the-wind service, as standards are so subjective, as is the condition of the home being cleaned, along with a great many factors that can interfere with how easily the work can be done.

Add to that, people clean at different speeds, some know how to clean and some don't, and many would probably want to be anywhere else other than cleaning a home.

It is certainly one of those jobs you have to love in order to do it well. I don't love cleaning per-se, but I love my job. However, there's no way I would do it for a cleaning company or agency - they can't afford to pay what is needed to make the job enjoyable.

In my old 3 bed semi, I had two cleaners for one hour, and in that time they would do bathroom kitchen, windows, skirting, hoovering and mopping to a very high standard. The first clean was the most difficult, and that was two cleaners for two hours.

Was the bath especially filthy when they arrived?
Diid you take any before/after photos?
Did they come with recommendations/ positive reviews/ references?
Did you give them a list of the jobs you wanted them to prioritise?
Did your DH pay any attention to what they were actually doing while they were there?!

Shocked to hear that they were booked in to do a deep clean of the bathroom and kitchen and didn't even bother cleaning the toilet during that entire time!

It sounds like they haven't done the full 1.5 hrs of work they're charging for, or are just spectacularly bad at cleaning. I would be inclined to tell them that you are unhappy with the quality and amount of work done, do not think it warrants £23/hr (a price you would have been happy to pay a decent cleaner for a proper deep clean service) and so will just pay them £12/hr each (still over minimum/living wage rates) and not use them again.

I don't think they'll bother taking you to court. It would be helpful to have evidence (like photos) if they do. And yes, write an honest review. Save others from going through the same bad experience!

Would you not be worried about them holding a grudge as PP has mentioned? It has crossed my mind

Nope. I had a similar situation where a cleaner turned up late, left early and did barely anything when she was here. I refused to pay. She threatened me with "you'll never get anyone to clean for you again". I said bring it on. Ended up with a better cleaner who has worked out that the tops of the cupboard doors exist as does the outside of the bathroom sink and toilet.
There's plenty of cleaners out there. It's not like it's a highly professional, qualified service. Don't let a couple of chancers frighten you.

I thinks that's poor. Plus for a deep clean you want all the basics done, bathroom first really. Walls last, if at all.

You've quoted the Contract as they charge £23/ph with no mention of each...

I would also point out that them starting at 15:30 and finishing at 16:45 is in breach of Contract anyway as they failed to do the job you employed them to do, nor did they turn up on time. The quality of the work was also below a minimum standard.

I'd pay for the work actually done and materials used if they brought their own. I would expect a bathroom deep-clean to take me a couple of hours which suggests you did get an hour's work from them. I'd be thinking more like minimum wage though. £20-30 perhaps?

If you pay "a fair price" for the work done, it makes it harder for them to take you to court for non-payment.

I'd email them and say that you're really disappointed with how little they did in 1 hour and 25 minutes.

At £23/hour which is much higher than the normal cleaning rate, I'd be expecting blood sweat and tears going into the work!

I'd probably reluctantly pay them but also leave them a terrible review online stating they were really late and did very little for the 3 hours you had to pay them for.

A GOOD professional cleaner would be able to look at a job and know how many hours it would take to get the work done, then give a price for the job. Not just give an hourly rate then state it would take as long as it takes...

Genuine question, you say "minimum standard", but against what recognised standards for cleaning would you be able to measure the quality of the work carried out?

The only recognised standards for cleaning that carry any kind of weight would be those set out for the NHS, and they aren't legally binding. Everything else is specific to all involved.

Update. I’ve messaged her and she is standing firm saying they did what they could and there was ‘a lot of timescale build up on tbe walls’, that I should be grateful she’s not added a late payment charge on to the invoice given it’s been a week & that she wouldn’t usually cover our area without an extra petrol charge but did so out of ‘goodwill’. She never told me this when booking, she said she covered the whole town. The house is 10 mins/2.5 miles from where she lives. What can I do? Would you transfer her for 1hr each or do I need to do the 1.5hrs each?

Pay them what you think the work deserves - the additional charges/comments about the state are a red herring. You've called her out and she's not happy!
At £23ph I would expect a much better level of service than you have received.
BTW That's way over what I pay my cleaner each week!

"What can I do"? Pay what they asked and leave it there. I told you it would be more hassle than it's worth. I have worked alongside so many cleaning companies and they rarely take a problem well.

For £69 and the fact some work was done (which as I said before is subjective and someone else may have been happy with it), it's a whole load of grief you don't need.

And as for a bad review, think carefully about how well that will go down.

I'm not defending the cleaners, but there's error on both your sides and they don't strike me as overly professional, so I don't know why you would risk any more hassle.

It's a straightforward breach of contract. They were employed to do a deep clean and failed to clean to a professional standard, neither was the work completed.
If you had to employ another cleaner to complete the work you would be out of pocket. Personally I'd probably tell them their work was worth £20 and pay them that. If they don't like it, tell them they shouldnt be silly enough to think they could let you down and get paid.