Lucy Letby ( To understand)

[PassingStranger]

What made her kill these babies. Been in the news again today.

It's hard to understand?
Presume as she is in prison and not a hospital, she is not mentally ill?

Will anyone try to find out, I guess if people don't admit they are guilty it's hard too.

Instead of people saying give me 5 mins in a cell with her, surely it's better to stop this happening or maybe it's not possible?
Why does she want to be one of the most hated women in the universe and not give a shit about the babies families and even her own parents?

So much better to be known for doing something nice and have people like you?
AIBU to wonder why she took this road in life?

Just to add that LL also apparently has the most coincidental "bad luck" of probably any medical professional in recorded history - to be on shift for all 25 incidents of unexpected, sudden illnesses/collapses & deaths; when not one other nurse was on shift for more than 7 of them during the same period.

Another tremendous coincidence, apparently.

I don't see it as (just) punishment. I see it as protecting the public from unpredictable, empathy-less, malfunctioning potential murderers.

If any serial killer had been out away for life after their first murder, how many peoples lives could have been saved? (Without even getting onto the destruction of their relatives and spouse's lives).

Child A&B were the ones born 6 weeks premature to a mother with an autoimmune illness.

Child A was intubated at 20 hours of life, failed an attempted trial of extubation at 20 hours and was restarted on CPAP, then failed another trial off CPAP at 26 hours of life, had 2 significant desaturations while on CPAP in the couple of hours before it’s final collapse - you think that was a bouncy healthy baby without significant respiratory difficulties do you?

Take your own advice: read the data, not just Daily Mail timelines.

”Only haemophilia”. A haemophiliac baby is at higher risk of intracranial and extracranial haemorrhage as well as other bleeding complications and needs to be monitored in an icu if it’s premature, has had difficult delivery or signs of bruising. (Baby N was slightly premature and born by C-section).

Child N was admitted despite the fact the unit did not have any Factor VIII. It had to be sent for from another hospital 13 miles away.

LL noted that everyone was a “bit panicked” by this baby and that she did not have any training to deal with it. The doctors had difficulty intubating him (3 attempts). The Alder Hey medic who brought the Factor VIII also intubated in first attempt.

One doctor noted additional 'problems' for Child N, including prematurity, jaundice, respiratory distress. The baby had several significant desaturations (including when LL was off shift), including a recus attempt and had a problem with a bleeding, swollen throat. One of the doctors speculated it could have been due to gastric irritation or NEC, another thought it could be a bleed on the lung. There is absolutely no evidence that the throat trauma was caused by LL. Given general lack of talent for intubation at the unit the bleeding and swelling could have feasibly been caused by the CoC doctors. Once transferred to the Alder Hey - a bigger better resourced unit - the baby made a complete recovery.

Dr Dewi Evans actually identified 60 ‘incidents’ during that time. Only 24 were included in that table. Statistically speaking that table is garbage and has no scientific merit.

im assuming the other 36 were omitted as Letby wasn’t on shift so they couldn’t pin anything on her. Also, that table shows where she is ‘on shift or thereabouts’ meaning that it could have been the shift before or the shift after.

that piece of evidence should have been thrown out.

Or bogus statistics.

All 25? Really? Not 60? What of the other 8 deaths? What medical definition of “incident” are you using? Who defined and listed those “incidents? (Clue: fhe very doctors who had already decided LL was a serial killer.)

recus

resus

Do you not believe that?

The justice system must strive to balance the need for public safety, the rights of victims, and the fair treatment of offenders, taking into account the underlying causes of their behaviour.

I don't see how anyone can believe that the NHS would try to cover up their own failings by accusing an innocent nurse. It would have been so easy to do nothing and just let these poor families grieve what they believed to be natural deaths/ life long injuries and just let everything drop.

By accusing Lucy Letby the doctors brought scrutiny on themselves and the hospital that they otherwise wouldn't have had. That's why the hospital wanted to let it drop. The doctors are heroes. They pushed for these cases to be properly investigated because they thought that truth and accountability was more important than the reputation of the department and the hospital.

Whether Lucy letby is guilty or not the doctors are far from heroes. I hope the public inquiry recommends charges or something against them too. They were obligated to take unexplained deaths to the child death review board and they failed to do that. Whether it was Lucy or just a terribly incompetent department something should have been done far sooner than it was.

Yes a late preterm infant weaning CPAP is a straightforward scenario in which death is not a remotely likely outcome.

An infant with haemophilia can be expected to do very well. It is completely usual for units to not keep in stock specialist blood products, so that they are not wasted. 3 attempts at intubation suggests difficulty but isn't out of the ordinary nor does it suggest incompetence.

I wonder what agenda LL could possibly have had for criticising her colleagues? The baby improved and made a full recovery when it was no longer under her care. Like so many others.

Your ignorance and bias is showing. I don't want to continue a discussion with someone who is happy to criticise and slander medical staff because it makes them feel clever and special. It's repulsive.

Where have you got the information that deaths weren't referred to CDOP?

The doctors you are criticising are those who escalated their concerns about the deaths resulting in multiple external reviews and ultimately the involvement of the police. It was only because of their persistence that these deaths were properly investigated and stopped.

All these incompetent doctors, some of them at the top of their profession… And all these incompetent lawyers… Seems so much more likely than that she’s guilty, right?

The sheer arrogance to think you know more than medical experts and the lawyers running her case.

oh well, she’s in jail with no hope of getting out so cope.

The mind absolutely boggles tbh. She has a few moments of glory where she commits these heinous acts, followed by a lifetime locked in a tiny cell being told when she can go outside for a walk a couple of times a week. Aside from it being a wicked crime(s), just the thought of being locked up would put me off. Sounds like hell.

Just wondering whether LL will appear in court for her sentencing this morning?

There seems to be a strong element of control in her behaviour e.g. she requested throughout her trial last year that she would be brought up from the cells before the jury were brought into the court as she didn't want the jury to see her come up into the dock.

But there also seems to be something childlike in her behaviour ~ apparently she always clutches a furry toy, blanket or scarf during court proceedings

I think there are so many different aspects to her behaviour and personality which have led to this

My wholehearted sympathy is with all the families affected by her actions

If she’s a narc she probably thought she’d never get caught. That’s why it was so hard for her to cope when the net did start closing. She probably believes her own lies as well so to her it does feel like she’s a victim of a heinous injustice.

How come her barrister didn't rip that to bits then?

Garbage ... Are you American?

Because the police didn’t get informed? And a police officer sat on the child death review panel. Eventually that is where they went. 17 deaths later. They were meant to go for any unusual deaths.

She clearly had a compulsion.

She clearly thought she'd never get caught. And she didn't, for a long time.

If someone keeps getting away with something, it's human nature to think they'll continue to keep getting away with it.

As others have said, there is clearly a PD or similar at work here too.

Re. not being caught, there were mistakes made re flagging/acting on lab results in one case (by a junior Dr I think) that didn't expose one of the deaths as highly suspicious..... It wasn't discovered until after the referral to the police, I believe.
There was also the incomprehension that someone would do this.
There was also the uncooperative, dismissive, bullying hospital hierarchy.

I believe there is a fundamental problem where the perpetrator is not fully responsible for their actions. Even the law recognises this with defence categories for things such as duress and insanity. Saying someone “is just a wrong’un” raises interesting questions around full culpability if this is really congenital, as some of these comments suggest.

I notice none of the "she was framed, it's all a huge medical and legal conspiracy against her" posters have commented on the timing of the deaths and attempted murders. Significant milestones and occasions that would never ever have occurred randomly.

So, do you think there is another murderer, or a bunch of murderers?

How many people do you think coincidentally happen to be employed in one neo natal ward, who have the inclination to murder babies?

Is that person or persons going to have half a tonne of medical handover notes they shouldn't have taken home in their garage too?
And scrawled notes saying they "killed them because they aren't good enough to look after them" etc.?

Clearly we need to go through all the garages and bedrooms of all these unapprehended neonatal serial killers still employed in that unit.

But the question is where does that balance lie when the perpetrator is afflicted by “congenital wrongness?” Surely, this raises questions around where the issue slots into the realm of the legal defences?

Personally, I don’t think people are just “wrong” from birth. I think we all have impulses and personality traits that we need to counter and some do and some don’t. To me a true case of being “ just wrong” is a case of diminished responsibility.

Another point to note is why would she continue to kill babies when she knew eyes were on her? When she knew Doctors were raising concerns. That seems like someone who would want to get caught. It just makes no sense at all.

Plus there still hasn't been a single bad word said about her from old friends/family/acquaintances etc. People don't generally morph overnight from a nice person to a serial killer. There's usually a build up, a pattern of behaviour, small crimes that escalate. For example that weirdo who was found guilty of the crimes against Holly Willoughby had previously tried to abduct women. Lucy hadn't so much as stolen a sweet from the corner shop.

Does anyone know much about her wider family/family friends or were her parents more or less isolated from the world at large? It could be there's been family abuse behind closed doors if they are the very private type of family.

I see, you made it up.

So you believe that deaths weren't reported as is mandatory (for all deaths occuring after a live birth since 2008) to CDOP, and that this very serious failing has never once been reported to the court nor in the press? It can just be inferred (!)

Have you considered the alternative possibility that the deaths were reported to the CDOP appropriately but weren't viewed as suspicious in isolation, until a pattern of excess unexplained deaths connected to one individual emerged over time. (And that possibly this represents a failure or weakness in the CDOP process). Wouldn't that be more consistent with the doctors being the once who ultimately pushed for a police investigation?