to think social housing tenants need their Horizon moment and lessons have not been learned

[JenniferBooth]

I had a visit from my housing association income officer last Monday . Insisting we owe rent when we dont.

Get a load of this.

"OneSanctuary SAP is the name of a multi-million pound software system brought in by Sanctuary in 2016, designed for use by all areas of the business. It has been an unmitigated failure, and is a huge drawback of working for this company.
The issues caused by SAP are staggering and difficult to keep track of. Because SHA tried to implement SAP in a cost effective manner, they ended up vastly under-investing in critical elements. There is no tailoring of the generically presented system ('vanilla SAP'), which is an issue as social housing is a unique environment from a service delivery and CRM perspective, whereas vanilla SAP is more geared towards providing a solution for manufacturing industries. Thus, the system uses corporate nonsensical buzzwords and methods of handling accounts which absolutely do not reflect industry practice.
Here are just some examples of the more specific issues faced by staff:
No rent statements have been issued since it was implemented in August 2016, and if a resident insists on a rent statement it has to be prepared manually in a spreadsheet
The rent and calculations for accounts are hard to use, and often completely wrong. Mostly because the system was never designed to understand housing benefit payments, and this has a very convoluted workaround which a computer cannot make sense of.
SAP cannot interface with Local Authorities Housing benefit systems so payments are missed, lost or misattributed
Direct debits do not work reliably, and for a long time following the implementation did not work at all. Front line staff are now preferring standing order.
The front end system of SAP requires far more testing and money spent on it. Each customer account is a total mess of information, with no discernible way to separate notes left between differing departments, with information left by staff often going into the wrong account entirely. This needs looking at as from a compliance (DPA) point of view the breaches are serious
From a usability point of view, the view of a customers account within SAP CIC does not display appropriate information to the user (as stated before this is likely because the system was never designed to be used by a HA) and the user often has to go trawling around back end systems to find obviously relevant data (e.g tenancy start date, account balance, property type etc). This is a seemingly minor but considerable waste of resources"

And just like Horizon and the PO they will not admit that anything is wrong.

He stood at my door on Monday and pretended to look bewildered when i told him i knew all about their SAP. He also gaslighted me when i reminded him that this harassment has been going on for seven years and we have had previous letters demanding rent we dont owe and he had the gall to tell me that they were just general rent increase letters I can read. i know what they are and have kept them all. The first ones are tucked inside my 2017 diary with all the notes about their lies and obfuscation when all this started which is still going on.

It apparently has to be paid again because the system cannot find the money that has ALREADY been paid.

Lessons have not been learned

As long as you can prove you've paid with bank statements or housing benefit payments then the onus is on them to prove you haven't paid.

YANBU btw.

YANBU, that is appalling practice on their part. It sounds like they tried to save money on the system and it's just not fit for purpose. What a stressful situation to be in. Thank goodness you've kept all the correspondence and it sounds like you have a very good grasp of what's going on. It makes me so angry when vulnerable people are left at the mercy of bureaucratic mistakes and told they're the ones in the wrong.

We had similar stupid letters from the gas company when we changed providers a few years ago, computer systems in this country I'm pretty much every area of life are a bloody disgrace frankly and I can only presume they mostly profit the CEO's brother's mistress's budgie as they certainly don't benefit ordinary people.

I've learned from bitter experience over the years to always keep accurate and extensive records and it sounds like you're absolutely on the ball. Good luck - hope you get it sorted.

Yes this, surely you must have proof of the rent leaving your bank account?

On HB DH is 74 Another tenant i spoke to has proof re bank statements but computer still wont have it

It might be worth you contact the council and ask them to confirm how much HB they are paying and check your claim hasn't been suspended.
I work for a HA and claims are often suspended when the council hasn't had a response to letters that the tenant hasn't received.

Maybe you could get help from Citizens Advice Bureau after you get info from council on the payments they have made.

Housing benefit is paid four weekly in arrears and lots of social housing tenancy agreements will state rent weekly in advance so unless at some point you weren’t on HB or paid yourself ahead you will be in arrears for at least part of the month. I had this issue repeatedly with my mum’s account.

The few times I worked with SAP were just desperate

In one, it was supposed to be a 'bespoke' version, which wasn't and routinely failed to register the whereabouts of important items for hours or days, the other simply couldn't add up

Like, 1+1+12 =92 stupidity

I'm grateful I don't have to work with that any more, but I realise I might be helplessly reliant on someone who does

Already do all this every time. Its been going on for seven years,

We have paid extra in the past It just disappears into an abyss.

I will take this oppurtunity to point out that the money the sub postmasters were supposed to have stolen wasnt showing up in their own personal accounts but that didnt stop them being sent to prison.

Do you have an assured or assured short hold tenancy?

Do you get any rent top up from HB or UC and if so, is it paid directly to your landlord?

Assured tenancy from 1994. Its HB thats paid because DH is 74. But i spoke to another tenant who pays his rent through the bank and has proof of payment but they still wont accept it.

It’s not them that have to accept the statements but the court. They can’t end an assured tenancy without getting a possession order and the judge should be looking at their conduct and the evidence.

Can you get HB statements from the council and keep them safe? If it’s paid directly into the rent account, it should show on these.

Also, afaik HB can be paid into your account and then you can pay it to HA. That way you’d have bank statements. But if the council pay it directly to HA then if you get some sort of confirmation of this, it would also be proof of payment.

If they try to end your tenancy, they will have to prove in court you actually owe rent or been late paying it. So they will have to produce rent statements. You will then be able to counter these with your proof of HB being pid into the rent account and the information you have about how unreliable the HA system is. The decision is made on the balance of probabilities. In other words, what’s more likely: that you did not pay rent or that the HA system is flawed. The more evidence you get of the system being flawed and you raising your concerns (name, date of the person you speak to and ideally follow up by an email), the better.

Speak to Shelter or a CAB as soon as you get a notice seeking possession or they start making noises about taking court action. There’s a pre action protocol for rent arrears they have to follow which includes identifying the cause of non payment of rent. So make sure you have evidence of flagging these concerns up.

You could also speak to your MP, the more tenants the better. After Horizon you might get some traction.

This all sounds incredibly “post office scandal” like!

Thankyou @rumnraisins Its paid directly to the HA plus we have also paid some too in the past on top of what the rent on this place is. The way its going they will end up getting the same rent that a three bedroom house is for a one bedroom flat.

Complain to ombudsman, there is process to go through so get some help from CAB or shelter. Also ask council for an accounting of your HB.

As you've quoted that accurate figures are produced through a spreadsheet, insist upon one.

Then create your own with the dates and payment references from the LA and your bank account (as the dates may vary between date of payment and date of receipt).

Going on about how shit the system is isn't as important as being able to prove to a court that you have evidence of all the payments being made and in a timely manner.

Found a link to the Private Eye article
https://x.com/timburness/status/1141712839717130241

That's 5 years old. All tenancy agreements will say rent needs to be paid in advance and if you are paying monthly then it obviously needs to be in advance .

I’m fairly certain there have been housing ombudsman cases about this. Have a search in their decision history and make a complaint.

@Sluj thats correct Its five years old And SAP was introduced in 2016 Eight years ago. I have both digital and a paper trail as stated above. It is made very clear in my OP that the problems began in 2016 when SAP went live. The sub postmasters problems went on for years so i dont think "oh thats old" quite cuts it!

We have paid extra on top of what they are getting and it disappears into an abyss. And we paid yet another payment last week If im only entitled to a one bedroom flat then why should i pay more and more and more because they cant find payments. Would end up paying the same rent as a house without being allocated one Thats unacceptable

Clarion Housing had the same problem a couple of years ago. If you keep proof of payment, they can’t do a thing.

This sounds hideously stressful, well done for keeping on top of it all and for raising the issue for others.

It certainly sounds like another scandal waiting to happen.