To be enraged that men are more respected than women even now

[OptimismvsRealism]

I manage a few people, some older men. I have noticed that when they speak, people listen. Gush. Thank you soooo much for your time. When I speak, they just expect it. Doing my job. Obviously.

One of the guys is new, not that good tbh, he's getting there. He says wrong things very confidently, in that way. And I find when I try to (diplomatically) correct the position, I'm disbelieved. I have to actually convince them that he's the wrong one.

This never happens with the women I manage (although the women are rarely Confident But Wrong).

I am worried it's becoming a fixation of mine and I might start overreacting. I can't change the world or this frustrating baked in sexism but how do I handle it?

Welcome to patriarchy.

Youre right and I have been in the game too long and am too cynical. But you are absolutely right. Mediocre men still get promoted far faster than stellar women. Because patriarchy.

It's so so so so so frustrating. Their cocky sneers. The most mediocre idiot thinks he's better than me. I'm not saying I'm a flipping genius but I'm reasonably good and I've got lots of experience and this shouldn't be happening!

I have never stopped to think of this before, but you are right. When I look back, the people I have known who were just incompetent or inadequate at their jobs, were all men. I've haven't known a single women who was as bad as any of these men. All these men had no insight into their own inadequacy, with most of them being full of bluster and they also loved criticising others behind their backs.

Yes the idea that women are "the bitchy ones" is bullshit ime

To answer your question about how to “handle it”: the only way you can handle it is to:

a) accept that you are at a disadvantage and have to work harder and be better and accept that as a challenge
b) but also call it out (in an appropriate and professional manner) when you see it
c) give yourself credit for getting as far as you can

I have seen a lot of senior women in male dominated industries go to one of two extremes: they either play up to it by making themselves as diminutive and “feminine” as they can in order to not frighten the horses or they become aggressively badass. I don’t think either is ideal.

I think after a while every senior woman in this industry gets quite cynical. If it’s a self defence mechanism that’s OK but don’t internalise it.

And surround yourself with strong female friends. They will reassure you that you are not going mad.

A leader who lacks confidence is shit

You can have all the other skills but if you lack confidence you're never getting to The top.

Whereas if the only skill you have is confidence then you can be Boris or Trump

Yeah they were really great leaders... OH NO WAIT

True but false confidence built on shaky foundations never lasts.

You do get people (mainly men and Boris Johnson is a good example) who are basically confidence tricksters who turn this into an art form and they can go a surprisingly long way with this.

But there’s us always something that trips them up. People like this tend not to get great at assessing risk and listening to feedback and they normally become divorced from healthy self awareness.

I didn't say they were great leaders, but they were leaders with only that one skill.

I’m not known for diplomatically correcting a subordinate, male or female. I simply say it how it is. I found being blunt and direct (communicate like a man) gets me the respect.

When a third party is involved you need to be diplomatic or it makes your department look incompetent.

I'd bet that confident but wrong new guy will be the boss of op in a few years

And I bet he won't be speaking diplomatically to her when he disagrees with

I don't believe the only way to get ahead is to be an overconfident pain in the arse although I'm glad it seems to be working out for you.

I used to work in a place like that. It frustrated me so much.

I switched to a different department and the culture is so different. The head is a wonderful and powerful lawyer and she prioritises women's voices and it has the effect of levelling the playing field.

I think it can be very specifically amplified in certain workplaces and needs to be very carefully managed.

You can’t actually win- you can be a subservient simperer or an annoying battleaxe. Pick One! 😬
I found out I had a reputation at work for being blunt and opinionated. I was surprised, but it seems that the fact that I don’t pander to the overly confident but wrong men and I speak up regularly has labelled me as such.
It’s frustrating in a way but I can’t change. I do also work hard to set an example to younger women and mentor them to be confident. The more women speak up, improve confidence and take up space the better I guess.

I keep worrying that respecting men is evolved into us (like how toddlers respect the voices of men more). But I guess we can reason our way out of stuff.

Why is being blunt and opinionated a problem though? I'd be pleased to be thought of like that at work. It usually goes hand in hand with a reputation for getting stuff done.

I've always worked in male dominated environments and I've changed the way I talk to combat this. I've stopped saying "sorry" and "excuse me" in meetings. I just make my point. Calmly and confidently. It's made a big difference

I don't know that evolved is quite the right word but we are certainly trained that way

Women can be trained to talk assertively ( and typically as part of that they will learn to lower their pitch and not add question - inflections at the end of every statement )

Boys are taught it as children though

Patriarchal societies didn't always dominate ( in other words it isn't hardwired that men should dominate ) but once you have them any male characteristics will be lauded

I've stopped saying "sorry" and "excuse me" in meetings. I just make my point. Calmly and confidently. It's made a big difference

Agree. I have the same experience.

Ok hun

You carry on being undermined by new starts and failing to support your female staff and theres no limit to the heights you can reach

I've never said I like the system but to not even recognise it is obtuse

Faod I am confident, calm, sure of myself (and a lawyer). I'm not blushing away stammering please sir may I have the floor? But the instinctive reaction from others (even colleagues who are my friends!) tends towards greater deference for the older blokes.

I find that I've had to watch my back a little more in the last year or 2 in my workplace, in terms of the men I work with. Most recently, 2 in particular, less senior than me and both reporting directly to me. However both very good friends with my boss. I've noticed her deference to them, even when they are being ineffective, which I've had to call out with her so that I can pull them back in line.

It's almost as though she was humouring them, like "well done, clever boy".

Bluntly correcting a subordinate wouldn't make the team look bad though. Pussyfooting about will make you look inefficient.

I find your responses to araiwa interesting. No pussyfooting there.

If your team gives legal advice and you butt in "no that's wrong" the client is going to think you're a shit department and take their dinero elsewhere

Men expect to be listened to, and in particular they expect women to do the listening.