To be enraged that men are more respected than women even now

[OptimismvsRealism]

I manage a few people, some older men. I have noticed that when they speak, people listen. Gush. Thank you soooo much for your time. When I speak, they just expect it. Doing my job. Obviously.

One of the guys is new, not that good tbh, he's getting there. He says wrong things very confidently, in that way. And I find when I try to (diplomatically) correct the position, I'm disbelieved. I have to actually convince them that he's the wrong one.

This never happens with the women I manage (although the women are rarely Confident But Wrong).

I am worried it's becoming a fixation of mine and I might start overreacting. I can't change the world or this frustrating baked in sexism but how do I handle it?

Sorry - this immediately made me think of this cartoon - sadly very true still.

I am no longer a solicitor but I used to encounter that a lot in practice. I would take a male trainee basically to observe client meeting/take notes and the client would often look to the man for the answers. I felt like shouting- they know nothing! Obviously I didn't. One of the most over confident ones became an MP, minister and then peer!

I think that you can only do what you're currently doing in front of the client. But I think you do need to speak to them separately about the incorrect advice/lack of respect for seniority.

Ha. An older man joined my team last year. Let's just say he's had an education.

The women that I’ve interviewed in the past have pretty much all undersold themselves whereas the men have vastly oversold themselves. The aura of overconfidence they give off can be quite staggering. And yes, a woman has to be way better than a man to achieve anything. It’s still the way of the world I’m afraid.

But if the advice given is wrong and you don't correct it how does that make your team look?

Similar here. I work as a gardener and occasionally come across men who question my knowledge or methods and I've developed a technique in talking to them. It's a sort of combination of Mary Poppins and Margaret Thatcher - cheerful, firm, to the point and brooking no dissent. I learned it partly from the brilliant woman lecturer who taught me horticulture and have taken it from there.

I don’t think rudeness or undermining subordinates is ever a good look.

But I do think that there are traditionally “male” and “female” communication styles at work and that the “female” ones often hold women back.

For example email: because women are socialised to be “nice” they tend to over flower things with phrases like “I hope this email finds you well” and “If you have a moment”. The conventional wisdom is that these help oil the wheels but I think they actually serve to undermine women. They come across as hesitant, weak and apologetic.

Most senior men don’t bother with this flummery and they get taken more seriously. I have had emails from CEOs which consist of one word: “yes” or “no”. Ire abrupt but it gets the job done.

I agree, OP. In my line of work (education) male teachers are often treated with complete reverence and seen as behaviour gurus. Don't get me wrong, we have some fab male teachers, but some who quite openly do the bare minimum yet are still considered to be wonderful. And manage to get promoted. Very annoying.

In a previous role (senior management team) we went through one of those 360 degree reviews.

Everyone who worked for me rated me pretty much 5/5 across the board.

My peers on the SMT (all male) rated me 2s and 3s. My job involved quite a lot of having to remind them of certain rules and regulations that they had to work within. Funny that they didn't seem to like being brought into line by a woman........

After I left the HR Manager told me that it used to frustrate her watching how much harder I had to work to be respected and listened to but there was nothing she could do because one of my peers was her boss.

Why is being blunt and opinionated a problem though?
It’s not in itself but calling someone those things is rarely a compliment! In fact I’m not sure men EVER get called opinionated. Or feisty or bossy. I have never naturally done that female communication style of apologetic requests etc and it literally took my to my 40s before I even realised why men ( only men) always commented on my feistiness/ bluntness/ confidence, because I just thought I was being straightforward. I am from a long line of similar women and it never occurred to me to be any different.
In fact I have advised several young women working to me to lose the flowery stuff in emails and be more direct to get quicker results.
Im not a rude old cow, if that’s how this sounds, just never seemed to develop the feminine appeasement gene!

I have never found that to be the case at all. I think what makes my department and leadership look incompetent is being wishy washy and prevaricating when my department via a subordinate of mine is clearly incorrect.

In my opinion, it is inefficient to be all ‘I’m not so sure that hasn’t been superseded by new guidance let us get back to you on that’ - it makes me look like I’m the incompetent one, who needs to ask a friend or look it up. Then, I have to trust the subordinate to go back and get it fixed after I have done a one on one with them. And who knows what they would say “oh I knew it was this but the boss told me to tell you the wrong thing, but as they say they looked into it and now I can tell you the right way…” (you give opportunity for subordinates to disrespect you by blaming you for their fuck up)

Its more efficient to fix on the spot and just be like “This specific situation calls for x not y, so we will do x, is that acceptable to you other department head?” And get the head nod.

The diplomatic way, I have found, creates follow up meetings and delays and potential for the less competent subordinate to screw the pooch again (or you)

But then in my business lives could be lost due to delays and being vague.

Really, all you are doing is trying to cover up errors in your department by trying to conceal any competency shortfalls- these will all exist every department will have them. I think other departments feel more satisfied knowing that at least the department head knows their shit inside and out and is not afraid to acknowledge an error and get it fixed on the spot. Really, I thank these other departments for calling things to my attention…I do not fear it..,,it informs my strategic planning for staff training, professional development, and suitability of a person for promotion or more responsibility.

Which would you rather think? That the department and the department head couldn’t advise their way out of a paper bag because they flip flop and prevaricate in person. Or know the department head knows their shit, is on the ball and won’t let her department hand out bad advice?

Correcting a subordinate is on the job training and transparent mentoring. You can do it in a way that is firm and not rude. I usually acknowledge the complexity of an issue and say “oh that would normally be right, but due to the nuances of this case, this is what is right” so the subordinate doesn’t feel dressed down in public.

I don't know if it's just by virtue of being a man. Sometimes it's because he is tall and attractive, charismatic or has a deep commanding voice. People who speak fluently seem more persuasive. Short men with funny voices don't get as much attention IMO.
I think if you have a quiet voice or bright make up or style it tends to discredit you.
Since you can't change your sex, try and give yourself the best advantage with honing your body language and voice tone so it's more masculine. Until the patriarchy is destroyed, this is the reality.

lol, toddlers don’t know how to respect, they only know familiar and unfamiliar. Most are familiar with the voices of women, and unfamiliar with the voices of men. They will most likely have gotten used to hearing and meeting women other than their mum, but not men other than their dad,

It is just natural wariness of the unknown- not respect.

The fact you think this means some misogynist asshole- man or woman- has socialised you to believe we are “evolved”- biologically programmed to respect men more and used faux science like this to make it seem plausible.

Men get more respect because our sexist society does not respect women. It’s not inherently biological, it is purely a social choice.

I don’t see this at work so much but definitely with parenting. As a mum, I get judged and the expectations are far higher whereas my child’s dad could do the absolute bare minimum and be applauded for it!

I've recently fallen foul of this approach. The man in question is apparently so damn used to his bullshit being blindly accepted that 1) he was staggered that I would question him (but hadn't developed the skill of bullshitting-on-your-feet, but more importantly, 2) he was enraged that a mere woman would dare to question his BS.

I've actually been kicking myself that I was quite so blunt in calling him out but I've come to realise that pussyfooting around it or saying the same thing with a #bekind spin wouldn't have changed anything. But I do think a lot of his current frothing is rooted in my audacity at questioning him when he considers me 'lesser' than him, rather than the reality which was the question showed him up.

I wouldn’t say you ran foul of this unless you corrected your own boss! Handling bosses is a different ball game entirely.

So long as you are correct and they were not- you come out smelling of roses and his rage looks like a toddler tantruming.

I work in a female dominated professional field, when a man speaks...wow, everyone listens. Its obvious why there are more men in senior positions.

We are going backwards, but as women we do it to ourselves. We are each others worst enemy (in women rights).

And I find when I try to (diplomatically) correct the position, I'm disbelieved.

Most men don't feel the need to qualify anything with diplomatically or such, so that puts us on the back foot. If you must correct someone - factual and straightforward is the way to go.

Oh god, totally. They talk to you like you're stupid. I'm educated, probably more than them at times, but they stereotype!

I am sick of workmen coming out and talking to dh, ignoring me! I am the one paying! 😡I have encountered men be so condescending to me, even had a one say "typical woman being worried about mess!" When me and dh went to pick up "my" car, the salesman sat dh in the front seat and told him about all of the features. Why, just why?!!

Welcome to the patriarchy. I'm 67 and worked since I was 18. I've seen laws change and, to some degree, attitudes but the old world order is still alive and well. The worst thing is that it still catches me off guard sometimes.