To be uncomfortable with my cleaner bringing her child

[Panapan]

We have a cleaner who comes for a couple of hours a week. Sometimes she brings a colleague and only stays an hour. Today she brought her teenage son - said he was going to help her as he’d finished his GCSEs. I assumed he’d just be hanging around with her but she then only stayed for the hour and charged me for two (ie she charged me for her son). He worked hard and didn’t do a bad job - not perfect but adequate - but I’m not completely comfortable with paying a 15 year old the same as I pay his mum. I’ve paid and won’t say anything as I’m hoping it’s a one off. But if he comes back next week, would it be unreasonable of me to gently suggest that I’d rather he didn’t come the next time?

Self employed workers can actually substitute themselves with another person. She could send a cleaner in her place.

She probably isn’t paying him the same as she will pay herself.

If you have an issue with the work done, that’s a separate thing and a valid case. Having an issue because of their age isn’t really on.

When the ‘client’ has employers liability insurance, public liability insurance, gives the cleaner holiday pay, pays their NI, puts them in payroll, gives SSP and a pension, then they’re the employer.

If this doesn’t happen, the cleaner is self employed and actually has the right to substitute themselves. The client contract the services NOT the person.

Of course YANBU.
It's HER job, not her son's job.
Tell her that you will only be paying her for her hours, and while her son seems lovely, you don't want her to bring him to HER job with her.
What if something happened to him?

Ask that to those who set NMW.

I personally prefer two cleaners in half the time, much more efficient. As for the lad. If he did a good enough job then it wouldn’t bother me. People should be paid according to the job and their output, not how old they are. I hope the next government makes it a level playing field for all.

She should have asked you first.

Totally illegal, he needs a work permit to work under 16.

My cleaner used to bring her older teen DD in the school holidays.
I thought it worked for everyone. The cleaner was in my house for less time, her DD earned some money (her mum effectively paid her DD and kept a cut for herself) and the mum got through her work faster so got to spend more time actually doing stuff with her DD and other DC (who were usually with family whilst she was cleaning).
Of course the teen wasn't as good as her mum was but she was pretty good, worked hard and I thought it was pretty impressive that she was prepared to do it when one of her classmates lived across the road from us.
Also, I remember being a broke teen who always had less money than their mates and being desperate for some cash to go out with friends, be able to buy what they had.

Correct, but while the self-employed worker has the "right" to send a substitute, the person contracting the service has rights to refuse too...never more so in a situation like this, where the "contract" is nothing more than a gentleman's agreement. I have been self-employed for over 20 years, and only in a very, very few instances has it been appropriate to send someone else to one of my clients.

Last year I had a period of several weeks where I couldn't work for many of my clients - they all had plenty of notice, and of those who were happy to accept a replacement, I provided only contact details for that person so they could all make their own arrangements. I didn't get involved at all.

I am not sure how to vote. He did a good job, and worked hard. BUT she did not ask you beforehand (not about him being a teen, but about needing/ charging for a second person).

Him being 15 is not the issue really. I think people should be paid for the job, regardless of age. But you didn't hire/ ask for a second cleaner or additional cleaning hours.

I've got to say, I'm struggling to work out what the problem actually is.

Are you unhappy that sometimes she brings another person to your house? Fair enough, your house, your rules, I don't always like people tagging along when I have work done at home - it all depends on what I'm having done and who the person is, etc.

Or are you unhappy because the other person doesn't clean as well as your cleaner? Again, fair enough, and that's your right.

But what you actually said is "I’m not completely comfortable with paying a 15 year old the same as I pay his mum", and yet you don't tell us why you feel that way. Do you know why you feel like this? If so, let us know. At the end of the day, he may well do the job better than someone much older, but without knowing what your rationale is for how you feel, it's impossible to answer.

However, the fact remains that it's your home, and you are well within your rights to ask her not to bring her son with her. You don't need to give a reason, though she may well ask you why - and that's why you need to be true to yourself first, because if you don't know, then you can't give her a logical answer.

I did this with my mom when was younger. It was a good experience, showed how hard it was to put food on the table. If you're happy and the job is going done, let it be. Tbh it's quite common, cleaning is hard work.

Would you worry if you hired a plumber and he brought his son?

Now you see, for me, yes, that would worry me, as I'd want to know what work the boy was doing - as in, was he "labouring" or was he connecting things up. With cleaning, unless the boy was like a bull in a china shop, the absolute worst that could happen would be that the standard of cleaning was poor and/or haphazard. With plumbing, I'd be worried for years to come that something may have been done incorrectly.

Funnily enough, it was around this time ten years ago I had this property I'm in now rewired, and the sparky had a 16 year old "apprentice" with him. However, it was clear that the apprentice wasn't doing the wiring, he was being shown the job, and he did all the labouring / sweeping up. An absolutely adorable and well-mannered young man to boot, but I wouldn't have been happy if he'd been the one doing the wiring.

This.

You’re not comfortable with it, tell them you’d prefer either they just do it themselves from now on or only bring adults over 18. FWIW I wouldn’t like that either.

I think I would tell the cleaner that you would have expected to be asked first.
If by “adequate” you mean his work is of a lower standard then I would ask her to show him how to improve, staying longer in unpaid time to do this.
I’d pay the boy directly - money into his hand.

His unqualified son?

If the clean was of same standard it wouldn't bother me. Good work ethic for the lad. He might make an excellent husband one day too!

I’m confused by the set up, do have a contract with this woman? You pay this woman to do a job, she doesn’t get to invite any one of her choosing and expect you to pay extra. There should be no gentle asking, she doesn’t get to change the terms of her employment by stealth. Her behaviour thus far would be a dealbreaker for me, I have no time to educate her on appropriate behaviour. She takes the proverbial because she’s a CF and she’s been allowed to.

OP already said it wasn't to the same standard.

He sounds awesome but if I'm honest if I'm paying for cleaning I expect someone that does it for a living not a teenager.

Exactly.
Cleaning may not requite formal qualifications but cleaning efficiently and thorough generally takes skill and experience.
Good luck to him if he wants to pursue that career, but your cleaner cannot just assume it's ok to bring a trainee just because he happens to be her son. She definitely should have asked if this was ok.

Well she can't unless the contract says that and generally no one would accept another random cleaner turning up!

I do get different cleaners occasionally and first time it was the main lady plus the woman who would do the regular clean -to assess the job and check what my requirements were. I'd not be okay with someone bringing someone who appeared "untrained" but I'd probably be too British to say anything.

I'd be more concerned that the job appears to be done less well -adequate rather than great. That's why I have got rid of cleaners in the past as I want something better than I can do myself. Competent isn't what I am after.

contract of employment

Why do people always say this. Most cleaners are self-employed therefore there is no "contract of employment". Also as a self-employed cleaner she can change how she operates whenever she wants, if you don't want her son helping that's fine, you can just ask her not to come back at any time.

As I said, performance is a seperate issue. And that stands regardless
of the persons age or how long they’ve done the job.

The contract? That the service provider gives the client? Most will cover this. Unless they are an entirely solo act.

You never had a builder or plumber come
along with an apprentice? Do they ask permission to be in the house?
Do they have a contract?