To wonder if Private School parents think we can’t read?

[Captainmycaptains]

Work/volunteer in Education so following the whole VAT debate.

SM is full of private parent groups ‘organising’ to get the proposed VAT on fees cancelled - fine you would, wouldn’t you esp.if you’re used to getting your own way.

They’re advocating hassling local schools, councils, demanding stats and figures that don’t exist, wiring to MPs - telling people to ‘claim’ their state place to ‘disrupt’ the ‘system’ while also saying ‘ Obvs we won’t be taking Charlotte and Hugo out of school, we’ll find the money’ etc strive harder, getting granny to chip in’ but this might make the council ‘panic’.

Do they think that people in support of the VAT aren’t seeing/hearing/reading all of these plans???

the funniest one yet is the poster who said ‘ well going to claim our state school places then! See how they like that! We’ll going holiday, pay the mortgage down, shop at Waitrose and save £700k in the process, ha!’
I. no you aren’t 2. Okay - go for it! Who on earth would think £700k is worth it?? Behave like a normal person then…

YANBU - yeah, they’re noisy as expected but the rest of us are as think/ concerned as they seem to think. Also - it’s too late for Sept - waiting lists only…

YABU - applying for school places you have no intention of using is daft, and of course everyone can see what they’re trying to do.

Scrap state faith schools. Truly divisive and not open to everyone

You pay insurance premium tax on private health insurance and if your employer pay for it it’s a taxable benefit. I don’t think this is the same.

YABU. I have no skin in this game, but just think it's downright nastiness to target parents who are simply trying to get the best possible education for their children.
Private school parents can say or do whatever they like to address this issue, OP, and you can equally choose not to engage with any of it.

I agree. Why on earth we allow a state funded admissions system to openly discriminate based on the grounds of religion is beyond me.

What about the many Private Schools that are not charities?
I agree that they shouldn't be at all but VAT will be applied across ALL Private schools, not just those that are charities so you can hardly call it a removal of charitable exemption

@saraclara

similsr to ours.

we heavily support the local primary school & nursery. From support staff, through use of our extensive grounds/rooms & various other supplies. Our minibuses/coaches for any transport they need and all kinds of things and that's without considering how much we're saving the govt on educating our 2000 kids.

To minimise the increase cost to our own parents, we are having to look at what we can still provide. Access to our grounds/building will of course remain the same, but we may have to stop providing them with all their transport needs &!some supplies.

the pupils go down to help too, setting up gardens with the little ones, art projects, reading, they help out on sports days, dancing, shows. That won't stop because of the tax, of course, but we may end up with fewer resources being available for these activities.

Some State School parents are very short sighted.

I think Labour our foolish to think that if parents have to pull their children out they will spend the money on 'stuff'.

IPT is 12%, far less than the VAT rate. Taxing a health insurance benefit paid for by an employer is the same as a private school parent paying fees out of income which has already been taxed. The income tax element is irrelevant.

Labour are not removing charitable status. They ended that policy months ago. VAT and charity status are two separate things. No private schools charge VAT at the moment because education (all education) is VAT exempt. That applies whether the school is run as a charity or as a business (almost half fall into the last category.)

Lots of private schools are lobbying against the VAT policy. The head of my DC’s private school has sent a very long and detailed open letter to Keir Starmer. They have also been talking about this policy to parents for a long time and have assured us that they will be able to offset some of the VAT because the school incurs a lot of VATable expenses due to the large, historic site that it operates from which is expensive to maintain. However, 70-80% of the running costs of the average private school is staffing and pensions. It’s therefore not easy to reduce costs without making people redundant or opting out of the expensive TPS. The head of my DC’s school has been saying for months that it will be the smaller schools that suffer the most and she emphasised this point to Keir Starmer.

There is no tax rebate. As I said, all education is VAT exempt. That’s an EU law that we have kept post-Brexit. In fact, private school parents save the taxpayer a huge amount of money by not using state school places (on average £7k per year per child.)

Like many private school parents, I have one child in state and one child in private. You are wrong to think that private school parents don’t care about the state system. There are many private school pupils who were previously educated in the state system who were moved to the independent sector when the state system wasn’t meeting their needs. Most (if not all) private school parents agree that state schools need to be improved and more money should be invested but this is not the way to do it. It may even end up costing the taxpayer money depending on the number of pupils who leave the independent system (or who, in the future, don’t start there in the first place).

They are that foolish. It’s precisely what the IFS have assumed. They think that every penny saved on school fees will be spent on goods and services subject to 20% VAT (and not on things like foreign holidays, savings, or pension contributions).

@Captainmycaptains why are you so bothered?

Are you jealous of people with money?
You have no idea how some dc get a place in a private school.
My dp’s were really poor. When I was bullied at my state secondary school they found a private school that would take me for free because of my religion and I had passed the 11 plus.
The uniform nearly bankrupted my dp’s but at last I was happy at school.

There will be fewer places for dc like me if vat is added to school fees.

100% this. The only people I know with children in private school are where they have an additional need which wasn't supported effectively in state provision, but can be in a small independent school.
They are now going for EHCP's which if successful, will mean the LA will need to pay a proportion of their school fees, and they will be VAT exempt, so it will cost more than just not putting VAT on in the first place.

The absolute best projections, if every private school child stays in their school and no one in private applies for an EHCP is that it will increase the state school budget by less than 1%. The likely reality is that it will be cost neutral and won't raise anything.
My girls are in state school so it won't affect us, but it just feels like a spiteful headline policy meant to divide, rather than having a positive intention or impact.
I think that is what annoys many people.
It's a 'Brexit' type policy - billed as the 'saviour of the nhs (brexit) 'saviour of state school (VAT) when in reality it will do nothing.

Which would likely require the government to pay basic or higher rate tax relief. Doubly disastrous.

I think its most likely that people will quietly quit at the next natural break point.

And fewer will join (or will join later)

Initial (projected) exodus does not tell the whole story.

Also its flawed because it appears to be based on an assumption that a national excess of school places means the state system will cope. There are going to be boroughs in larger cities where this will not be the the case (especially if falling rolls mean a school closes, so families are forced out even if they might otherwise have chosen to stay)

Yes, I'm sure it'll adjust over time. But I think it would be wrong to airbrush out difficulties completely. Including the likely shrinkage of desirable schools' admission distances, which could start as early as this autumn's round.

No I agree, it’s unlikely to be spent on the stuff given listed on the post the op saw.

For what it’s worth I think if you can only do one of the two, the housing deposits is a wiser investment. Whatever happens in life, whatever job you have you, wherever you end up in life you will always need a stable home and shelter.

however I know that’s a black and white view with many many exceptions and viewpoints etc.

My BIL is very wealthy. Loads of foreign holidays each year. Run expensive new cars. Second home in the country. Various property investments. Children attend one of the best state schools in the UK. It is nothing like the failing overcrowded comprehensive in the sink estate. Why put more tax on the parents of children at the mediocre private school, with poorer results than his DC state school, which they are pushing themselves to afford to escape the failing comprehensive, but not my BIL benefitting from a brilliant state school at no extra cost?

I don’t disagree but perhaps the question should be why are faith schools better educators?
And if they’re not then why are parents desperate to get their dc in them?

OP not coming back now everyone is disagreeing with them?

I have two kids at private and have yet to hear of a single conversation like that going on anywhere. Fees go up every year, it's fine. I'm not thrilled, but whatever. It's not for life. And if Labour do what they're being vote in to do, our cost of living will stop skyrocketing every year, so it all cancels out.

But I do think that the conservative press is pushing Labour into a corner where they look increasingly spiteful. Because this tax won't raise any kind of meaningful money, and it just looks like sour grapes. Not a good look, really.

These parents are TOTALLY missing the point....

We (state school parents) WANT well off professionals to send their kids to local state schools. We WANT them to invest their networks, time, emotions, and even money in local state schools.

Obviously if there is huge influx to state schools it might cause some disruption (although this won't actually happen). But if more parents send their kids to comps this will be a great thing in the long term.

It’s not really fair though is it?

VAT isn’t added on education anywhere else in the U.K. or in Europe for that matter.

University? Private nurseries? Should we add VAT there OP?

You seem very wound up by people who don’t want to pay twice and then add VAT on top.

In the end it’s billionaires that have hoarded all the cash. We need a wealth tax to stop the crap policy of pitting parents against each other.

The £1.7b it will raise won’t go nearly far enough to fill the missing £14b annually that’s needed to turn things around.

It’s just a divisive tactic used by Labour to win more votes, knowing full well that 7% are at private school. How could this possibly not fly? You’re being hoodwinked into thinking this will change things but it won’t. Just like Brexit didn’t work either. It’s blaming someone else for the shortcomings of crap governance.

I hope it goes to judicial review.

And for the record, parent of private kids who’ve done their time in state school. Many years. And I’m not doing any of what you’ve described. I’m just waiting for an extra large bill come September. So now I’m going to grumble about you grumbling about people who aren’t like me but you’ve chucked us all in the same box.

Get a life OP.

I don’t wear PJs and can honestly say I have never felt ‘posh’ in my entire life! But I’m not English, so perhaps that’s why. Your class system, and on-going acceptance of it from many, has always left me baffled.

It’s all talk. Most of them will just moan but then manage to pay the extra by offsetting elsewhere. It might slow down the process for parents wanting a state school place as with more in the list they’ll have to work through contacting those who applied with no intention of taking a space and getting their decline before reaching genuine applicants

I agree. There are reasons why faith secondary schools often get better results (whole different thread!). It’s why so many people suddenly start going to church part way through primary school. I know a family who did this. Decided they were religious a few years before secondary applications and proceeded to lecture anyone who would listen on the unfairness of private education,