To wonder if Private School parents think we can’t read?

[Captainmycaptains]

Work/volunteer in Education so following the whole VAT debate.

SM is full of private parent groups ‘organising’ to get the proposed VAT on fees cancelled - fine you would, wouldn’t you esp.if you’re used to getting your own way.

They’re advocating hassling local schools, councils, demanding stats and figures that don’t exist, wiring to MPs - telling people to ‘claim’ their state place to ‘disrupt’ the ‘system’ while also saying ‘ Obvs we won’t be taking Charlotte and Hugo out of school, we’ll find the money’ etc strive harder, getting granny to chip in’ but this might make the council ‘panic’.

Do they think that people in support of the VAT aren’t seeing/hearing/reading all of these plans???

the funniest one yet is the poster who said ‘ well going to claim our state school places then! See how they like that! We’ll going holiday, pay the mortgage down, shop at Waitrose and save £700k in the process, ha!’
I. no you aren’t 2. Okay - go for it! Who on earth would think £700k is worth it?? Behave like a normal person then…

YANBU - yeah, they’re noisy as expected but the rest of us are as think/ concerned as they seem to think. Also - it’s too late for Sept - waiting lists only…

YABU - applying for school places you have no intention of using is daft, and of course everyone can see what they’re trying to do.

It’s absolutely mocking the name choices and is reverse snobbery. Would it be acceptable for me to say that I hope Kayleigh and Jaden enjoy their increased class sizes?

Why would private school parents lobby for something that doesn't affect them?

Where have the state school parents been?

There isn't a tax rebate. They pay TWICE

@Nicebloomers for the people for whom it's 'a nice luxury' it's probably not a huge issue.

for the others that it's a necessity it's possibly life changing for their child. Private school are not all Eton type schools, have some compassion!

Well we pay our taxes to support state schools and then save the state 7K per pupil per year by funding the education of our children ourselves. For SEN kids, the parents save the state a lot more than 7K inc cost of EHCP.
VAT and charity are 2 separate issues.

I’m one of many, many high earning households who pay a ton of tax and don’t believe private schools are better, and/or worth the money…

I'm guessing your children don't go to a "failing" school then.

Get a grip OP! Stop paying so much attention. Although if you had you’d have seen this is going to cost more than it’ll make and I’d say it’s likely Labour will backtrack once they’ve made a full assessment. #chill

Especially when you consider a good number are trolling them like OP is.

It’s not a charitable exemption that is being removed. They will remain charities but will have to charge VAT on fees. Two completely different things.

Also as someone who has worked in the charity sector I think you’d be very surprised at lots of organisations that have charitable status and the way they operate.

Private schools are not for profit. Thats the difference between them and businesses. They don’t exist to make money for the owners.

I'd hope that someone "in Education" would realise that the options aren't just "extreme privilege" or "normal". In both sectors there's a range of options.

Some private schools are extremely expensive and have an "old boy network" but lots don't. Some are sporty or musical, some support a lot of children through bursaries, some keep costs as low as possible so that they have a range of families who can afford the fees and some have places paid for by tax payers where a particular child cannot be supported adequately by local state provision. On the whole, these are options work well for those using them. The "power" that parents can exercise here is that of removing their child if they're not happy.

Equally in the state sector there's some excellent provision with a variety of after school clubs, top sets who get places at top universities, excellent teachers etc. There are some where the behaviour is poor and disruptive, where there's a constant churn of teachers subject to this poor behaviour and violence in some cases, and where some children do achieve good results but only in spite of their school, not because of it. Parents of children at the worst schools have no power or influence. Only the most idealistic parents in favour of state schools actually want to send their children there.

Before trying to squeeze a system that is working in favour of one that in some cases really isn't, perhaps we should address the issue of why some state schools are excellent and some are so poor if funding per pupil is the same in the excellent and the failing schools?

@DancefloorAcrobatics

why would you want that for MORE children, rather than wanting better for the children already there??

Not this again, surely. This policy has nothing to do with charitable status. It’s entirely separate. Labour have said they’re not changing the charitable status position. Half of private schools don’t have charitable status anyway.

Could not agree more. I remember as a very vulnerable lone parent watching Cameron get voted in with all the hideous measures he was trying to bring in, only saved by the Lords, who felt he was being too harsh(!)

it's terrifying when you are powerless to do anything about your situation, no backing/support or resources to help get you though.

There are whole swathes of people who have oodles and oodles of money. there are those in our Govt who are so extremely wealthy that they honestly have no idea of what life is like for so many. I'm now a world away from where I was 14 years ago, but I can see that even though i am not that powerless individual, that I have backing, means and choices, I remember what it was like when I didn't. I've seen hospitals decline, the NHS is broken and it isn't about just chucking billions at it, there is more that needs to be done to make it work. Schools are under funded, education for the majority is suffering, our kids health is suffering and they are being let down.

CEOs are making millions a year, basic starting salaries in this country are pretty much the same as when I entered the workforce 30 odd years ago. Trickle down isn't working, the CEOs get richer and richer, the bonuses get bigger and bigger and there is no money there to keep the lower ranks paid sufficiently to be able to cover the bills without benefits. This is fundamentally wrong. Working people should be able to keep the rooves over their heads without the government paying housing benefit. Going to work should pay enough for you to live.

I know that nobody wants to pay more, but if wages had risen at the bottom the way that they have at the top, this tiny gesture of VAT on a minority of schoolchildren's places would not be necessary

My tax bill is already HUGE and goes to support state schools that I'm not even using as well as many families on various types of benefits/top-ups etc. Why should I be taxed even further for a state school I am not using?! How is that fair? Why only tax private school parents and not everyone?

Let’s hope so. The policy will achieve nothing, other than disrupting children in both the state and private sector. I live in hope that the Labour Party see sense eventually (although I’m doubtful). This is everything to do with ideology and nothing to do with economics.

I’m a left-leaning voter. Sadly, I’m not wealthy. Private school would always be out of reach for my DC financially. I was also a school governor for 5+ years at our school, and there is/was a disproportionately high number of SEN and disadvantaged kids.

And yet.

I don’t support VAT on private school fees.

I want every child in this country to get the best possible education they can. I don’t begrudge anyone a private education.

VAT won’t squeeze the truly wealthy. The kids that will lose out are those going to independent schools where the fees are “only” a few hundred a month. Where average families have squeezed and scrimped to send their children there, sometimes because they’ve been failed by the over-burdened state system. They will be forced to leave where the wealthy might not be happy but it won’t force them out. It’s not a “tax on the rich”.

Our state schools are in a mess. Already oversubscribed and with huge classes. There aren’t enough teachers to go round - classes are being taught by TAs or teachers who aren’t knowledgeable in the subject (secondary).

The IFS has said the money from VAT won’t bridge the gap.

I would like more, not less, kids to access a private education. That would actually help those in state schools too by easing the numbers.

Id prefer to see a more radical policy which forces private schools to offer affordable bursaries or scholarships.

Life isn’t fair financially, in any aspect. I shop in Aldi because I can’t afford to shop at Waitrose. I don’t have private medical insurance, others do.

The goal should be making privileges and better standards more accessible to everyone, in as many ways as possible. And certainly when it comes to education.

The trouble is, private schools have a reputation, which you can see in posts like this one. Not all kids who go to private school are the wealthy elite that some folk love to hate. There are plenty of ordinary kids at private schools too, and they’re the ones most likely to lose out.

I find the glee at disrupting kids’ lives pretty shitty actually.

You really are not helping your cause. The chip on your shoulder is getting bigger by the minute. Ours were privately educated because the state system failed them both but for different reasons. Our only other option would have been to home educate as the Good rated state comps. Couldn’t support their needs. Home educating would also have been a disaster so what would you suggest we should have done? If you can really give me a sensible answer to my question, I might take your petty rantings seriously 😧

Exactly. There are multi millionaires at state school, using state resources, and yet no one seems to think it’s sensible to get them to make a contribution to the education system they’re actually using.

Would you say the same about the NHS if you’re lucky enough to be healthy? Why should I pay more tax for a service I’m not using?

I don’t agree with VAT on school fees because I don’t think it will bring in any money but this kind of argument is pretty weak I’m afraid.

This was my thought

I doubt very much that much disruption will come as result of this. or a whole lot less than is being threatened.

Too right it wont win votes

Disastrous for the environment.

And on a more personal level, would add significantly to household expenses (petrol, fares etc, plus council tax if more qualified for free transport) and make the school run pretty hellish for the pupils, their parents and everyone else trying to move around at about that time.

Most are not in support of messing people around and breaking rules. They're just concerned parents. I'm in one of these groups and this one of the most recent posts:
We have stated before that we do not support parents applying for a school place that they don’t intend to take, just to make a statement.
This group is now getting sizeable so as monitoring gets harder you will not be given multiple second chances.
We have removed another member this morning. If you make comments encouraging people to apply for state school places without a need, these comments will be deleted and you will be removed and banned from this group.

I think it's totally fair to be concerned and try to prevent your life being upended, even if you don't actually think the policy is unfair. My tutor group spent a full 20 minutes yesterday discussing politics, this particular policy and how it's going to affect them - some think they are going to have to move schools, either to state or a cheaper independent which is a big deal for any child, regardless of the reason. And of course the others know that it doesn't take that many to leave before a school becomes unviable and the rest have no choice. They're obviously worried and hearing lots of conversation at home and they're 10-12 years old.

The thing is no parent I have spoken to will spend any money they save from fees (if they pull their DC out of indi schools) on "stuff". It will go on pensions or savings for DCs house deposits etc. That is a fundamental flaw in Labour's assumptions.
We would squirrel it all into our pensions.

Looking at it another way, a private school family will effectively be taxed for not using the taxpayer funded state equivalent. It’s akin to suggesting that people who don’t use the NHS should pay more tax.

FGS this is getting so boring. The reverse snobbery and assumptions from some like you, OP, are just as tedious as the let’s apply a for a state school place to pressure the government lot. And the latter group is likely to be a tiny minority. My DD is at private school. There is a lot of chat on the groups but not one person in our school’s groups has said this.

Yes, I have seen some express concern about the impact of the policy on their finances but by and large they continue to plan to vote Labour because it’s better for the country. Not everyone who uses private school is some right wing lunatic who fails to recognise their privilege and puts their own position over the devastating impact of a Tory government on the poorest.

In our family, we will simply make adjustments to cover the additional payment, and then carry on as normal. For example, I currently work for a charity and could afford that lower income but will now go to a private firm and do the same job there for more money, to cover the additional cost. It’s not my preferred choice, but it’s fine. That’s just life.