To wonder if Private School parents think we can’t read?

[Captainmycaptains]

Work/volunteer in Education so following the whole VAT debate.

SM is full of private parent groups ‘organising’ to get the proposed VAT on fees cancelled - fine you would, wouldn’t you esp.if you’re used to getting your own way.

They’re advocating hassling local schools, councils, demanding stats and figures that don’t exist, wiring to MPs - telling people to ‘claim’ their state place to ‘disrupt’ the ‘system’ while also saying ‘ Obvs we won’t be taking Charlotte and Hugo out of school, we’ll find the money’ etc strive harder, getting granny to chip in’ but this might make the council ‘panic’.

Do they think that people in support of the VAT aren’t seeing/hearing/reading all of these plans???

the funniest one yet is the poster who said ‘ well going to claim our state school places then! See how they like that! We’ll going holiday, pay the mortgage down, shop at Waitrose and save £700k in the process, ha!’
I. no you aren’t 2. Okay - go for it! Who on earth would think £700k is worth it?? Behave like a normal person then…

YANBU - yeah, they’re noisy as expected but the rest of us are as think/ concerned as they seem to think. Also - it’s too late for Sept - waiting lists only…

YABU - applying for school places you have no intention of using is daft, and of course everyone can see what they’re trying to do.

We have several friends and relatives who went down the private school route. Every single one of their children wishes their parents had just given them the money instead.
The bright ones would have achieved just as well in Grammar/state school and the less academic ones are working in roles that really don't require an expensive education (beauty/reception/gardening).

For many of us it isn't about results. Also that's a handful of people you know Vs 600,000 pupils overall. Just because you know a few people doesn't mean that is everyone

It has zero to do with luxury and this policy will not help to do anything to improve state schools and may make them worse. Not caring about a certain group of children says everything about you and sums up this shit society that we live in. It’s people like you that are making it worse.

I actually don’t give a shit what my DC in private school ends up doing for a career. I just want him to leave school with his mental health in tact, unlike me.

Been in the state system already 8 years. The teachers politely told me to get lost when I suggested spelling tests in year 1 not be stopped, or god forbid, more homework than once per week, that was more than just an A4 spag sheet. Or even learning times tables.

Then there’s always the vocal dumbed down parents who want even less work in and outside of school. They want no homework at all, less spelling tests, no bothering with timetables, the refrain I often heard was “oh let them be kids”.

However the chickens come home to roost when it’s time to take GCSEs and suddenly a string of 9s seems impossible. It’s years of preparation (not the syllabus itself) learning to concentrate and memorise and analyse. These parents closed doors for their kids early on in life. That was fine years ago, but inflation and global competition is here and you can see it in your lifestyle these days. Things are only going one way.

And when these vociferous parents get going, well Of course the teachers couldn’t be happier to oblige. Less work for them.

The idea that I’m going to somehow transform the state sector when I tried quietly for 8 years is just laughable. I don’t have that sort of influence. Wish that I did! Would have given my local state school a rocket.

Private has been better. No school is perfect but because money is changing hands there’s pressure to perform, both the teachers and the kids. At state school it felt like some of the time it was just child-minding very big kids by year 6. Just a holding pattern before they then went on to drift aimlessly elsewhere.

People like me quietly withdraw from school politics and tutor at home while still at state school…

When you have SEN kids this statement is irrelevant. You can’t put a price on pastoral support which was non-existent in the state system.

22% of autistic adults work full time. I’d like my DC to be in that statistic.

The autistic children I know in the state system are refusing to go and self harming. Big mental health problems.

Go figure…

Is it fair? No it’s not. But is it fair that you can spend you cash on a five star holiday while I might not able to?

so now you’ve got holiday privileges over me? I chose education and mental health. You had the privilege of neurotypical kids and can send them where you wish.

Should we all holiday at Butlins so no one is experiencing anything better than anyone else.

It’s a free market, unfairness is part of that set up. We all buy what we can afford, houses, cars, holidays, food. I didn’t make the rules but it’s the system we’ve used for hundreds of years.

People want to tinker with one aspect to raise a tiny amount of tax. Madness. It will fall down in the courts, I am certain.

If you can read, read this: https://www.adamsmith.org/research/short-term-thinking-analysing-the-effect-of-applying-vat-to-school-fees
With a 25% migration rate, the policy would generate a loss of 1.6 billion. That’s before we consider the inconvenience to current state children, who will see class sizes increase to 40+. Given the shortage of state school teachers, this seems less than ideal, that’s before you factor in the currently unaddressed SEND crisis. Sounds like absolute chaos to me…

Fair enough.
I wasn't making a statement about kids with SEN.
But you are making some assumptions about me there!
No my DC are not NT.
If you look back at my posting history you will see that my DD is autistic.

So in all societies there is a spectrum of well off and not well off people. Of course the range of this spectrum varies from countries such as the USA to Sweden at the other end. Even in communist countries such as North Korea there is such a spectrum.

Now there has also always been a social acceptance in Western societies that the wealthy have an obligation or duty towards the less well off. In Victorian times this was expressed as "noblesse oblige" and in modern times a progressive tax regime that taxes the wealthy proportionally more than the poor. Of course there will be the wealthy that try to avoid their taxes or where the tax rate on the wealthy becomes so high that they will either leave (as happened in France), reduce their hours or simply retire early. But generally it is accepted that the wealthy proportionally pay more in taxes than the poor.

What makes the VAT on private school fees different and what makes parents angry is that it is perceived as a class war attack on the wealthy and politics of envy for the following reasons.
The wealthy parents of PS children will prepay their fees, the less wealthy will transfer their children from PS (between 10 to 25%) plus PS will be ow be claiming back VAT from purchases. All this means that it will cost more to raise than it actually raises. When this has been pointed out many posters don't care they just want to punish "the rich" or class war.
By still paying for state education through your normal taxes but choosing to send your child to PS you are actually saving the state money. To tax this act looks again like vindictive "class war".
What seems to have been forgotten in this debate is the impact on the children of either being removed from their schools and friends or the feeling that society thinks that they are doing a bad thing by being at a PS. Now many parents will tolerate verbal attacks or discomfort on themselves but they get really pissed of when it's their children that suffer.

Now some may say "I don't care" or the "rich will just have to suck it up" "they deserve it " or "bring on a class war" but this is really not a smart move when the economy is stagnating and 1% of the top income earners are paying 30% of Government income tax receipts.

The problem is that this policy is likely be a net loss to the state and make state schools worse for the next 5 years. It's pure ideology to do it now.

Thank you, i will.

It's people buying themselves and their kids an advantage but somehow feeling they should be above paying tax on it that's the problem in society, actually.

They're just asking you to pay tax on it to make society that little tiny bit fairer. It says a lot about you and other private school parents that you're so opposed to it.

We are opposed to it because:

1. Labour haven't costed it themselves, they rely on 1 single document which the authors now admit was over optimistic and simplistic
2. Labour accepted a ruling previously that it was illegal to tax education
3. It won't bring in anywhere near the amount touted and indeed the net income will be around £0-0.5 billion
4. We already pay tax, many at a higher rate
5. Private schools save the tax payer £40 billion per year yet are accused of having tax breaks
6. IFS have stated that Labour's tax plans won't benefit the public sector
7. It is a diversionary policy to avoid questions about why Labour aren't propsing to increase funding of the state school sector to the levels required to make a significant difference

Utter bollocks. How is making private schools more elite making society fairer?! The parents who are actually wealthy at my DC’s school have prepaid five years of fees to avoid paying VAT. The rest of us either struggle on if we can or move our DC to state. This policy isn’t impacting the genuinely wealthy and it isn’t going to generate any meaningful amount to improve state schools.

And what advantage do you think I am buying? My DS1’s state school is higher performing as far as exam results and university entrance goes than DS2’s private. Have you ever had a child with severe school refusal and anxiety? Do you know what that is like as a parent to have to deal with that? If you don’t, check your own privilege. If you do, well then I can’t honestly believe you would want more children to suffer unnecessarily.

Oh and by protecting my DC’s mental health I am helping to ensure that he becomes a fully functioning member of society who will be paying tax in the future.

I remain baffled by the idea that those of us with children at the vast majority of private schools are buying our children an advantage. We are fortunate that we have the option to choose the best educational fit for our own specific child’s needs. However are we buying an advantage? Certainly not at my son’s school! The myth seems to continue to persist that all private schools are the equivalent of Eton and Harrow. They are really not.

Because that's the language Labour use so people believe. Divisive and disingenuous

Have a rummage, this is total BS.

I was talking to a lady at DC’s swimming lesson yesterday who sends her own DC to private school locally. She is Indian, her DH Nepali and they have one DC. They are not “rich rich” at all, far from it. I asked her if she is worried about VAT on school fees. She said she is, but she will still do everything she can to pay. She said that it is just another form of racism that people like her experience in this country. But she said that amongst their circle of highly aspirational migrants they all believe that in 20-30 years time their own DCs will be in all the top jobs and running the country because they work hard and aspire and will do anything for education. So she said it is definitely worth it and if her DC does not get the opportunity here then they will just go to another country, but nobody can take away a decent education. It is with you for life. It was quite an interesting perspective. Certainly, at our own London grammar schools there are a ton of Indian, Chinese and other Asian and Nigerian etc migrant highly clever highly talented and very hard working families and children. I do expect them to be getting some of the top jobs in the future, either here or elsewhere. So many of these kids are lovely, competent, polite, respectful and above all, driven and hardworking.

I think every parent can only do the best with what they are given, that can be private, state selective, catchment or just sit with the DC in the evening to help them if you have no other choice. Aspiring and working with the DC towards a good education, whatever that means, in the broadest sense, has to be a good thing. And of course this VAT policy is entirely discriminatory towards children with SEN in the private sector, or emotional or mental health challenges. That is a given.

It is perfectly conceivable that once the VAT is implemented that they might come for grammar schools, church schools, whatever else represents privilege. But I think as parents it is important that we remember that we are the driving force in our DCs lives and that we will be able to handle it. Personally, I am more worried about WW3 than the Labour Party coming for grammar schools. I am quite disappointed there has been hardly any discussion around security issues in this Election given what is actually going on in the world.

The vocabulary you choose is very revealing. Labour will 'come for' grammar schools? Really ?

They're not brave enough, but I wish they would, like other modern and successful education systems have.

The idea that children from 'hardworking families' should have a right to a supposedly better education than those from other, presumably feckless, families is quite a position to hold !!

I do fear for the cohesion of our society.

Have you seen the level of bad behaviour at state schools:

1 in 5 teachers have been hit in the last year who work in the secondary state system.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-68674568.amp

Some kids do want to work hard. Is that possible in this sort of environment?

Will £1.7b change the way those kids behave… don’t think so…

There’s a recruitment crisis in teaching anyway, 50% of new teachers leave after the first year, and who could blame them?

The reason education is so bad now is because there’s a discipline problem up and down the country.

Teachers want to teach but are often not able to. This isn’t just about lack of money. It’s about so much more but no one wants to talk about the elephant in the room.

@Itsprobablynotcominhome

"It's people buying themselves and their kids an advantage but somehow feeling they should be above paying tax on it that's the problem in society, actually.

They're just asking you to pay tax on it to make society that little tiny bit fairer"

So despite historical record high levels of taxation the public (rightly or wrongly) perceive that levels of public services have been and continue to decline. Such as through queues at hospitals, lack of SEN provisions at schools.

This has got to the point where rather than just accepting poor levels of public service, those that are financially able choose to buy that service from the private sector, even though they could get it from the state for free and even though they have already paid for it through taxation so that effectively they are paying twice.

Examples include:private education, private health insurance, private refuse collection etc.

Those that are unable to pay for such services privately are then left with the state version which is seen as not as good eg waiting lists , poorer results etc.

Seeing that the rich have a better service than the poor does creates resentment and anger in much the same way as many passengers in economy resent those in First Class seeing it as unfair.

But rather than seeing the problem as seeking to improve state services (education, healthcare, bin collection) to the level of private services they instead try to either bring private services down to the level of state or abolish private services altogether in order to make it "fair".

@Itsprobablynotcominhome

"It's people buying themselves and their kids an advantage but somehow feeling they should be above paying tax on it that's the problem in society, actually. "

So currently all education is zero rated for VAT but the policy was create VAT on private school fees but not say private tutoring, crammed schools, university fees etc. Just PS fees because that seen as not "fair".

It would be a bit like a theme park which has normal tickets and fast track tickets which cost alot more but save you queuing. Now both tickets currently attract VAT at 20% but because the fast track tickets are seen as not "fair" because you get to skip the queues then VAT is levied at 40 % on fast track tickets. This then leads to a fall in fast track ticket sales and the theme park's revenues fall. They make up for this fall in revenue the theme park either cuts cost eg a couple of shows or rides or raises the price of normal tickets.

So although the normal ticket holders now pay a higher price for a lower service they are happy that everyone gets this as they feel this is fairer.

I wonder how many of the slightly smug net contributors on this thread were more than happy to be net takers in 2008?!

And still continued to enjoy the privileges of being wealthy despite being bailed out by higher taxes on people with 10% or less of their wealth and income.

And then further saw their wealth rise as the BOE bailed out asset holders with quantitative easing and zero interest rates, leading to the inflation of the last couple of years, which was another massive tax on your average wage earner but hardly affected your average private school parent.

Being a net taker or receiver is a bit more complex than some would make if our to be.

So if results don't matter, what exactly do you believe you are paying for? Not being goady, it's a serious question?