To wonder if Private School parents think we can’t read?

[Captainmycaptains]

Work/volunteer in Education so following the whole VAT debate.

SM is full of private parent groups ‘organising’ to get the proposed VAT on fees cancelled - fine you would, wouldn’t you esp.if you’re used to getting your own way.

They’re advocating hassling local schools, councils, demanding stats and figures that don’t exist, wiring to MPs - telling people to ‘claim’ their state place to ‘disrupt’ the ‘system’ while also saying ‘ Obvs we won’t be taking Charlotte and Hugo out of school, we’ll find the money’ etc strive harder, getting granny to chip in’ but this might make the council ‘panic’.

Do they think that people in support of the VAT aren’t seeing/hearing/reading all of these plans???

the funniest one yet is the poster who said ‘ well going to claim our state school places then! See how they like that! We’ll going holiday, pay the mortgage down, shop at Waitrose and save £700k in the process, ha!’
I. no you aren’t 2. Okay - go for it! Who on earth would think £700k is worth it?? Behave like a normal person then…

YANBU - yeah, they’re noisy as expected but the rest of us are as think/ concerned as they seem to think. Also - it’s too late for Sept - waiting lists only…

YABU - applying for school places you have no intention of using is daft, and of course everyone can see what they’re trying to do.

@Shambles123 ,

Pensions, they get you as soon as you start drawing it, as long as it is over the limit, which is all of £1.06 million.

Give up work or put all extra into pensions

Parents switching to state will not spend every penny on Vatable items though. They’ll spend a large amount on

1. foreign holiday. No UK VAT. A tiny bit of air passenger duty.
2. Savings (cash or shares). Each couple has a £40k ISA allowance each year.
3. Pension contributions. No tax take, and actually leads to tax relief being due.
4. Larger house. Small amount of stamp duty but no tax to pay on gains.
5. lump sum gifts to older children for house deposits etc. This has the added benefit of avoiding IHT.

You can set up pensions for your DC and we are a long way off £1million in our pensions. About £800000 off 1 million

@Another76543 ,

’Small’ amount of stamp duty?!

10% over 925 k, 12% over £1.5 mio. I just recently paid £70k of this inefficient unfair tax, didn’t feel that small!

And you will pay your solicitor, probably renovations, new furniture etc etc.

Unless you withhold labour or keep your money in cash, it will end up generating tax.

I have approx no pension due to school fees so I’ll be fine for a while 👌

Stamp duty is no where near the 20% VAT rate. Many of those switching to state because of the tax won’t be buying houses worth over £1m either. Even £1m would mean an overall
stamp duty rate of around 4%.

Take school fees of £20k. Even if every penny saved by switching to state was spent on Vatable items (it won’t be), it would only produce VAT receipts of £4k. That is still thousands less than the £7k cost to the taxpayer of educating a child in the state sector.

There is no lifetime allowance for pension any more, it ended this tax year. Assuming that's what you mean, because your post is a bit confused.

You just have though!

‘Parents switching to state will not spend every penny on Vatable items though. They’ll spend a large amount on

1. foreign holiday. No UK VAT. A tiny bit of air passenger duty.
2. Savings (cash or shares). Each couple has a £40k ISA allowance each year.
3. Pension contributions. No tax take, and actually leads to tax relief being due.
4. Larger house. Small amount of stamp duty but no tax to pay on gains.
5. lump sum gifts to older children for house deposits etc. This has the added benefit of avoiding IHT.’

So not all plucky strivers making sacrifices then? People with money to spare and then some…

If you divide the projected amount to be raised from this policy by the number of private school children it works out at around £2.7k per child per year.

I think in reality this amount is not going to make many switch to state (I say this as a parent with a 4 year old child about to start at private school). The only thing that will make me switch to state is if class sizes and facilities in the state sector improve.

I fully support this policy, I don't agree with a 2 tier system and if this improves equality between the 2 sectors I think it is the right thing to do.

Wow, that's amazing that state placements have zero cost!

So why is the education budget £60billion per year again?

I was a floating voter but all the whining from rich people on Mumsnet has persuaded me to vote Labour. I hope they crack on and get it implemented asap because the outrage about this is evidence of just how wide the gulf is between rich and poor in this country and we need to start redressing the balance.

All these people going on about "it's the children who will suffer!" They're not being sent to prison. If state education is ok for the poor kids, why not rich kids?

Exactly right. Anyway, all the evidence shows that how well children do at school is influenced much more by their parents and upbringing than which school they went to.

You are missing the point. It's not worrying about rich kids going to state schools: many private school kids have had at least some of their education in state, and most parents have weighed it up as an option.

And it's not threats and bluster, as pp have said.

We're watching a car crash in slow motion - and it's completely obvious from where we're standing.

Admittedly, I'm particularly worried that the car crash is aimed at my family - and pissed off that I'm paying for the petrol - but I can also see that it's going to take out all the bystanders too, and that no one will benefit. It's so fucking stupid.

So yes, I've been shouting 'Open your eyes FFS and put on the breaks'

I'm fed up of seeing governments cause car crash after car crash which are so bloody obvious, if they just listened to the people who actually know more about it.

Like shutting down the schools for covid. I bet the men deciding that policy just focused on their very important jobs, and left everything child related to their wives.

Remember when they re-opened the schools for 2 days after the holidays then locked down again? Talk about maximum harm to kids with minimum benefit to stopping the spread: which was completely obvious to any working mums as soon as they announced it. But they probably didn't have the term dates emblazoned in their minds - because it's their wives who manage holiday childcare. And they don't really appreciate how quickly kids spread germs, because it's their wives who take time off work when kids get ill after the start of school.

It's exactly the same.

We're telling you what will happen (choice between school vs moving house at age 3 and 11; work fewer hours vs fees) because these are things we know, things we do.

Not with the kids in school now: it's too late for most to change. But over the next 5-10 years, as new people come to make choices.

Listen or don't. Frankly, I'm past caring.

Remember when Labour predicted 13,000 Polish people would come to the U.K. when border controls were removed back in early 2000s and then 1,000,000 yes 1 million people turned up to live here.

Just goes to show how ‘estimates’ can go wrong… especially when there is financial gain/penalty.

It’s not coming in until at least 2025… https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/private-schools-vat-labour-reeves-b2566493.html

I still can’t believe that a policy that will raise a teeny tiny £1.7b is garnering so much attention.

Definitely politics of envy. This wouldn’t even pay the monthly interest on our U.K. national debt.

The most recently recorded figure for that was Dec 23 and we paid £4 billion in interest payments.

https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/governmentpublicsectorandtaxes/publicsectorfinance/bulletins/publicsectorfinances/december2023

We’re in debt to the tune of £2.68 trillion and people can’t stop yapping about £1.7 billion tax on school fees.

How anyone can possibly think this will make a big difference I don’t know. It’s crumbs on the table.

From the most recent report:

1. ”Public sector net debt excluding public sector banks (debt) was £2,685.6 billion at the end of December 2023 and was provisionally estimated at around 97.7% of the UK's annual gross domestic product (GDP); this is 1.9 percentage points higher than in December 2022 and remains at levels last seen in the early 1960s.”

So much hyerbole over having a bit added on to school fees which most private school parents can very easily afford. What's all this talk of car crashes? Those who can't afford it will need to make cutbacks, or horror of horrors, put their kids into free education.

“Most” but what about the ones who can’t and their children. Many of them will have been in state education and moved to private when it failed them. But you don’t give a shit about them.

And I am fucking sick of people
like you who make out that private school parents are terrified of state school because we have no idea of what it’s like or think we are someone superior. Like many private school parents I went to state school myself and one of my DC is educated in a state school now. I absolutely know what state school is like and I know that it will not meet the needs of my privately educated child.

And £4400 per year is not a “bit”. It’s a lot of money to some people including some private school parents.

This type of logic is flawed. This tax is a minor inconvenience for the private school parents with the means to improve the state system. No more. The ones who will be affected are those who are scrimping every penny to keep their dc in private school because the state system has let them down. The ones who were utterly powerless to affect change in the state system which is why they had to resort to private.

We’re very fortunate now, we could afford to pay the 20% VAT. But a few years ago things would have been very different which is why I feel so strongly about this. I’m sorry to tell you that if we weren’t as fortunate, our efforts would not be going towards helping improve schools in the state sector. Dh and I would be entirely focused on improving our own position so that we could continue to afford school fees so our dc weren’t disrupted. As harsh and selfish as this is (and I do accept it is selfish), my own dc are my priority.

We keep being told that only 7% of children are in private education. That leaves 93% of children in state. So tell me exactly how many it takes to help and support schools? Tell me exactly why you don’t care if it’s shit and haven’t been potentially been mobilised to do something. Why are you waiting someone else to swoop in and make things better for your children? Why do you want to punish a minority of parents for not stepping up for you when many of them have already done exactly that for their own children.

I really wish there was more empathy for the parents that will struggle with this because I can assure you, the ones you are hoping will drag up standards won’t be affected at all.

Agree. This idea of small percentage of former private school parents joining state sector will improve low performing state schools with their magical power of influence and persuasion is for the birds.

I have seen it DD's state sector primary - a repeatedly 'requires improvement' school immune to all suggestions from parents. Over the years, parents who cared enough, and were able to, moved home/school.

That's what happens everywhere - parents who can, move to better schools; parents do not improve schools.

Why are you waiting someone else to swoop in and make things better for your children.

I agree. This idea that private school parents will improve state schools is not only fallacious but unbelievably patronising.

No you're right, i don't. State education is failing thousands of children daily, i care about the ones who can't buy their way out of the system.

Society shouldn't be run for the convenience and the comfort of the richest people. We should be looking after the worst off first. You should be paying tax on luxuries.

-VAT has nothing to do with luxury

• If we start viewing certain types of education as luxury, where does that definition end?
• this policy will NOT improve state education

Blah, blah, blah. You have swallowed Labour's straplines so like PP there is no point. Believe what you want.