To wonder if Private School parents think we can’t read?

[Captainmycaptains]

Work/volunteer in Education so following the whole VAT debate.

SM is full of private parent groups ‘organising’ to get the proposed VAT on fees cancelled - fine you would, wouldn’t you esp.if you’re used to getting your own way.

They’re advocating hassling local schools, councils, demanding stats and figures that don’t exist, wiring to MPs - telling people to ‘claim’ their state place to ‘disrupt’ the ‘system’ while also saying ‘ Obvs we won’t be taking Charlotte and Hugo out of school, we’ll find the money’ etc strive harder, getting granny to chip in’ but this might make the council ‘panic’.

Do they think that people in support of the VAT aren’t seeing/hearing/reading all of these plans???

the funniest one yet is the poster who said ‘ well going to claim our state school places then! See how they like that! We’ll going holiday, pay the mortgage down, shop at Waitrose and save £700k in the process, ha!’
I. no you aren’t 2. Okay - go for it! Who on earth would think £700k is worth it?? Behave like a normal person then…

YANBU - yeah, they’re noisy as expected but the rest of us are as think/ concerned as they seem to think. Also - it’s too late for Sept - waiting lists only…

YABU - applying for school places you have no intention of using is daft, and of course everyone can see what they’re trying to do.

@1dayatatime ,

‘If the ideological reason is to create fairness and equality then surely it's far better to bring up the level of all state education rather than try and bring down the level of private education’

Having been governor of a small state primary, I cannot tell you how offensive this pathetic trite argument is.

How? Without money? You do know (or maybe you don’t) that schools had to fund the entirety of the teachers’ pay rise from nonexistent funds. And the parents who really could make a difference with both money and time are few and far between. Fundraising made £10,000 last year. I have been at private school charity auctions where individual bids have exceeded this.

And, yes, it is money on the whole. There is no magical free educational fix to make up for poor parenting (and the standard of parenting really has declined) or abject poverty.

If you really care, do something about it! Give money to your local state school, volunteer your time as a governor or push for your private school to share facilities or staff.

If you don’t give a shot, fine, but don’t advocate for some mythical ‘levelling up’, as you compare £7,000/pupil with £25,000/pupil.

Single parent here, ft NHS worker, two children in independent schools for a variety of very good reasons. The meanness and inverted snobbery from some people is horrible.

Children will need to move schools/be aware of financial stress at home. Many children. Many with SEN. These children did not choose to go to independent schools. Yet they are the ones ultimately who will be punished.

I have many years experience of middle class parents and I have no doubt whatsoever that if Labour are elected and VAT of 20% is charged that:

1. the demographic of the best state schools will narrow even further
2. state schools will be placed under even greater pressure (eg 25% of children are at independent schools in Edinburgh - if just 10% of them move to the state sector that’s a lot of children to find places for)
3. independent schools will become far more elitist
4. the 28% of children in independent schools who currently received some level of bursary support and whose parents cannot easily absorb any fee increase will be most at risk
5. and most importantly, state schools will not magically get better across the board. But fewer children will benefit from the excellent education available at many of the independent schools in the country.

@ComeAlongPeggy ,

’most importantly, state schools will not magically get better across the board. But fewer children will benefit from the excellent education available at many of the independent schools in the country.’

Why do you work for the NHS then and not a private provider? I could say exactly the same about the NHS (with a few, steadily becoming fewer, honourable exceptions) and private medicine.

Should more benefit from the excellent healthcare provided by private providers, as the NHS won’t ‘magically’ become better-in fact it is collapsing as you are typing out your post in favour of private schools.

(also curious about how a single parent NHS worker can put 2 children through private school, unless you are a very senior manager-and you were the one who thought your personal circumstances relevant).

@Newbutoldfather I don't see why it's a trite argument. By improving state schools out of general taxation (why shouldn't millionaires who send their kids to state school pay for some of this?) you raise standards for all and eventually negate the need for private schools.

But the Labour seem to prefer the approach of bringing us all down to one level rather than raising us up.

I work for the NHS because in my speciality (I’m a doctor) I am able to work with world
class colleagues and research. I have done small bits of private work in the past but I’m 100% NHS now.

My dc passed scholarship exams and were both awarded significant bursaries on top of their scholarships.

One of my colleagues (she’s a radiologist) was very hard up for a while when her fb were at (state) primary. The school received pupil premium for them. Both then won places at outstanding independent schools for year 7 - one with a 90% bursary and one with a 100% bursary.

It is NOT only the super elite and wealthy in independent schools.

Oh, and in the main us NHS staff are happy for people to have private treatment because it takes (a tiny bit of) the pressure off. The NHS has many issues but I’m proud to work within it and the people I work with are a good bunch of dedicated and hard working people.

@ComeAlongPeggy ,

Well, that is impressive and you are clearly very bright.

So do you think that the NHS should be levelling up to the best in the private sector or do you think that the NHS needs more funding to even provide a basic level of care? Can you see the analogy with private vs state sector schools?

@TeenagersAngst ,

‘I don't see why it's a trite argument. By improving state schools out of general taxation (why shouldn't millionaires who send their kids to state school pay for some of this?) you raise standards for all and eventually negate the need for private schools’

So are you proposing a wealth tax or reimposing the 50% tax? How many millionaires do you actually think use state schools? And what taxi rate would raise significant funds? Or would you rather just raise the basic risk and further increase income inequality?

To genuinely ‘level up’ state schools, you would probably need to increase the education budget by 50% and find significant one off funds for buildings’ improvements. The current schools budget is £60bio, so we would need to find £30 bio or 1% or so of our total GDP. Where do you want this to come from?

If you don’t have a good answer to this, it is a silly trite argument.

@Newbutoldfather So you think that money's coming from VAT on private schools fees???

I don't imagine anyone has a good answer to it other than a massive increase in tax or a magic money tree.

And you need far more than money to improve state education. You need to sort out some of the parents' attitudes for a start.

And in answer to your question about millionaires sending their kids to state school, there have been examples on this thread already given. I think you'd be surprised.

Im clearly very patronised, not so sure about bright.

IMHO, comparison of NHS and private medical care vs state and independent schools is unhelpful.

Millionaires might send their kids to good State schools.
If they send them to failing ones they are either stupid or lying about being Millionaires

@Hoppinggreen I'm sure you're right. I wasn't distinguishing between which type of state school they send their children to.

@ComeAlongPeggy ,

Apologies if I came across as patronising, it certainly wasn’t intended.

‘IMHO, comparison of NHS and private medical care vs state and independent schools is unhelpful.’

IMHO, it is one of the most important discussions to have, without prejudging the conclusion. It goes to the heart of the issue. What basic rights should we have as individuals in the uk (good healthcare? Good education?) and what additional privilege it is ok to buy (better healthcare? better education?) and how should a private and state sector harmoniously coexist.

@Newbutoldfather

"How? Without money"

Absolutely with money, but a tax policy which costs more to implement than it raises actually reduces the amount of money available for education.

Gov spending on education is different to other Government spending. It is an investment in the future of society and the economy. I will never forget that the education tsar resigned after he asked for £10 billion to fix the education system after Covid and was given 10% of that. The younger generation were thrown under a bus during and post Covid.

So where does the money come from?
Well you can increase the state pension age quicker, you can tax alcohol more (the cost to the NHS of alcohol is £27 billion but only £13 is raised in alcohol taxation), CGT on principle residence etc. But none of this would get votes.

Instead the idea is to introduce a tax that costs more than it raises purely driven by a desire to bash the rich rather than any genuine interest or concern to invest ( because that's what it is) in the level of state education.

If you're a Doctor you'd know that that the vast majority of children in private schools come from households in the top income decile and that stories like yours are in no way representative of the average private school student.

@1dayatatime ,

Thanks for your detailed answer.

‘Absolutely with money, but a tax policy which costs more to implement than it raises actually reduces the amount of money available for education.’

Well, we don’t know that. The IFS estimate is £1.6 billion raised but, like you, I am dubious.

‘Gov spending on education is different to other Government spending. It is an investment in the future of society and the economy. I will never forget that the education tsar resigned after he asked for £10 billion to fix the education system after Covid and was given 10% of that. The younger generation were thrown under a bus during and post Covid.’

100% agreed. But private school pupils did have a very different experience. We (teachers) Zoomed (and subsequently Teamed) every lesson and set and marked prep. I saw the inside of some very grand homes including several of my pupils who had ‘gone to the countryside’ for the duration of COVID (my school was in a very affluent area). My children, on the other hand, for the first lockdown were pretty much ignored, so I tried to homeschool them at the same time as teaching my pupils!

‘Well you can increase the state pension age quicker, you can tax alcohol more (the cost to the NHS of alcohol is £27 billion but only £13 is raised in alcohol taxation), CGT on principle residence etc. But none of this would get votes.’

The first two taxes are regressive, in that they hit the poorest hardest! Why did you choose them. I am all for raising the CGT to an individual’s top rate of taxation and to apply it to the primary residence, but it should be indexed to inflation.

If you really care, do something about it! Give money to your local state school, volunteer your time as a governor or push for your private school to share facilities or staff.

@Newbutoldfather do you do that?

@ComeAlongPeggy
If you are a doctor you are already in a higher tier economically. I'm not sure anyone thinks only the elite attend private schools, simply that privileged people do. People who can 'save' £15k a year by not going on holidays or having flash cars are still privileged by comparison. Bursaries pay for a fraction of students in private schools.
Also, specialty (surely 😆?)

@Barbadossunset ,

’ do you do that?’

I donated (over the years) in excess of £10k to my children’s state primary. I was also a governor for 4 years, which is a major time commitment. I also went in and gave assemblies and helped out.

And, as a teacher at a private school, I was involved in ‘partnerships’ (I persuaded the school to lend the playing field to a local primary, which was hugely successful, as the very kind PE teachers ended up staying and coaching the pupils, which definitely wasn’t a part of the deal).

I am a strong believer in giving back and I was lucky enough to be pretty successful in my first career.

@Newbutoldfather
That’s good you contributed so much.
May I ask why you chose to teach in the private sector when state schools are short of teachers?

South East here...

My cleaner and partner (also a cleaner) send their DD to private school. No family money - paid for out of earnings.

@Barbadossunset ,

Ultimately, I started teaching late (after a 20+ year career in finance) and had a young family.

Longer holidays and easier pupils were very appealing. And I am not sure I am the best at behaviour management, although I think I have got better. It was a compromise between principles and convenience, and I am afraid convenience won. I loved my time there, to be honest, most of the pupils and parents were great. But there was a significant minority (many of whom seem to be on this thread!) who seemed entirely unaware of their privilege and treated the teachers as domestic servants (well, the way bad employers treat domestic servants).

And an extra teacher in a scarcity subject still frees up another teacher to teach in state. I am not necessarily done yet and I am considering a last job in a state setting!

Say it louder sister, amen!!!!

But there was a significant minority (many of whom seem to be on this thread!) who seemed entirely unaware of their privilege and treated the teachers as domestic servants.

@Newbutoldfather Thank you for answering my question.
I’m sorry that some pupils treated teachers like domestic servants. Could they not be punished for this?
Also, what did they do exactly? - I mean a teacher can’t be told to carry out tasks or do a student’s bidding, surely?