To wonder if Private School parents think we can’t read?

[Captainmycaptains]

Work/volunteer in Education so following the whole VAT debate.

SM is full of private parent groups ‘organising’ to get the proposed VAT on fees cancelled - fine you would, wouldn’t you esp.if you’re used to getting your own way.

They’re advocating hassling local schools, councils, demanding stats and figures that don’t exist, wiring to MPs - telling people to ‘claim’ their state place to ‘disrupt’ the ‘system’ while also saying ‘ Obvs we won’t be taking Charlotte and Hugo out of school, we’ll find the money’ etc strive harder, getting granny to chip in’ but this might make the council ‘panic’.

Do they think that people in support of the VAT aren’t seeing/hearing/reading all of these plans???

the funniest one yet is the poster who said ‘ well going to claim our state school places then! See how they like that! We’ll going holiday, pay the mortgage down, shop at Waitrose and save £700k in the process, ha!’
I. no you aren’t 2. Okay - go for it! Who on earth would think £700k is worth it?? Behave like a normal person then…

YANBU - yeah, they’re noisy as expected but the rest of us are as think/ concerned as they seem to think. Also - it’s too late for Sept - waiting lists only…

YABU - applying for school places you have no intention of using is daft, and of course everyone can see what they’re trying to do.

I guess I'm just a bit perplexed at people being glad kids lives will be disrupted, people will probably lose their jobs etc.

It's just not very nice is it?

on the point re private kids taking the top set places - in my experience that is possible . One DS state grammar from state primary - the private prep kids were considerably ahead at the outset . Other DS top set state comp moved into second set at private and a none selective one at that .

So, OP, what about YOUR privilege?

You say you work/ volunteer in education. What do you do exactly? Are you a teacher (I don’t think you are). If you are, then you have some serious advantage over the rest of us. Even if you just work in a school, you have early access and access to things that other parents do not. You know what is coming up in the curriculum, you know what works and what doesn’t. You know what is coming down the road. You might know how to access the best resources for SATS, 11 plus, GCSE, A levels. You will understand who it all works, how you fudge the system.

Funny how people in education do not fess up what a massive privilege they have over the rest of the population. I doubt many teachers pay for 11+ or other tuition. But it is not OK for others to buy it,

on the point re private kids taking the top set places - in my experience that is possible

My comment wasn’t meant to offend. This is my experience. My Ind school taught maths to a very high level. They worked at 1 year ahead I believe. Because of this all the DC who left our year 6 to go to the local state secondary went straight into the top set for maths, despite not having SATS results to go on. None of them have since been put down a set and they are all now in 6th form.

So the wealthiest should be given tax breaks in case their children should not have to experience change?

These children will be fine, their privilege means that their parents have lots of options - including one that will save them. Money - going to state school.
As the majority of the children in this country do.

It's not just that though. If this was just a cold cost/benefit analysis, like many tax policies are, that is one thing. What some parents (including myself) find perplexing is the seemingly visceral dislike for privately educated children and their parents that spill out when this topic is discussed.

Not going to quote, but there are few good examples of that here in this thread.

Even your orignal post naming two children, Charlotte and Hugo, sounded like mockery first. Later you clarified that they were in fact actual children you know, which is probably worse than mocking hypothetical children.

This makes me think there is lot more to these threads than just discussion about a proposed tax policy change.

Full disclosure, DD goes to an independent school and the VAT change will cause some problem for us. But we support the policy and voting Labour as usual.

It just makes me uncomfortable that there is so much dislike for people like us, fortunate enough to earn more and choosing to spend that extra money in education instead of elsewhere (or saving).

Also makes me uncomfortable that DD will face some of that hostility in her life, even though decision to pay for private education was our.

After 25 pages it's clear you are not interested in anything other than repeating things that have been endlessly pointed out to you as untrue.

Not paying VAT on school fees is not a tax break. You don't get a tax break for not paying VAT on nurseries or university. No other country I can think of charges VAT on education.

It has been explained by a vast number of parents on this thread that many of those children at private schools are not "privileged" in the way you are attempting to paint this. The SEN child at a special school, the child who would otherwise move schools every 2 years due to their parent's role in the military or Crown Service, the child who is talented enough to qualify for a place at Purcell or White Lodge (and paid for mainly by the government).

You are also not see the views of state school parents - many of us are not overjoyed by the idea that there will now be even more competition for good state schools, grammars, SEN support etc.

And all for a policy that seems to be Labour's ONLY proposed increase of funding for state schools. And the offer is frankly rubbish - 1/3 of a teacher...

Perhaps you could explain how the SEN child who was suicidal and failing in state and is now finally getting an education in a no-frills tiny private school is going to be "just fine" when their parents are forced back into state?

You still haven’t answered the question about why you are so keen to see this policy introduced. What do you think it will achieve?

I think most of the dislike has come from the threats that private have made, or the statements like one above which insinuates that another parent isn't trying as hard.

OP has no interest in reviewing this policy based on its merits. That was clear from the get-go.

I am paying a lot per month for virgin tv and internet - we still seem to be paying for a phone line.

There was a time when we could only get virgin in this area.

What is a reasonable monthly charge and who should I switch to? I would love to dump virgin as I've always felt a bit ripped off.

We have one person WFH so we need good internet.

I'm just out of contract now so I have the chance to change provider.

Any advice gratefully received

I think your tone here is unnecessarily unpleasant, like the worst comments by ps parents. Your 'noisy as expected' is such a them vs us approach.

People compelled to write on MN are often noisy of course, but really there have been people for and against this VAT who have been so obtuse and aggressive that the whole debate just descends into a slagging match. Far too many ps parents are expressing superior and fallacious opinions about being somehow more committed to their children's futures, that anyone who is for this VAT is somehow spiteful or envious and - probably the falsest argument of all - that they are funding state schools via their tax - all taxpayers are funding various services they don't use through tax. And then some (but far fewer) state school parents are also being nasty by characterising ps children and parents in particular ways.

It's clearly reprehensible to tie up the schools admission system by lying, but that's all you need to have said. And it's notable that when the strategy of applying to schools you've no intention of sending your kids to arose as a suggestion on another one of these threads, not a single ps parent spoke out against it.

People are motivated to send children to particular schools for any number of reasons that shouldn't really bother anyone else. Many of those most distressed about the VAT have children with SEN, and I am in no doubt that in the vast majority of cases, if someone had a child with SEN who was being very badly served in a particular school and found an appropriate school and (if it was private) had the money to send their child to it they would do so.

no child should have disruption thrust upon their education and support system. every week it happens to hundreds of children up and down the country when the rent goes up, the landlord sells and the family is priced out the area so the child can’t stay at school with friends, support etc. when councils rehome them miles away from school meaning they can’t stay. Yes there will be echp and sen children who are forced to leave their schools too.

time and time again mumsnet go “if you can’t afford a house just move”. it is as disruptive for the wealthy as the lower economic spectrum (arguably the wealthy can soften and buffer it better as there’s at least more choice).
yet it’s rarely mentioned as an issue.

“They can. People whole I know who went private mostly applied for local schools as a ‘backup’ until they were certain they wanted to pay instead… it’s always a bit stressful for state parents that time of year between the places allocated and people accepting them.
you don’t initially get your 1st or 2nd place school in but then a couple of months later the unaccepted state places - by private parents or for other reasons- come free and you then get offered your preferences.

By Aug it all shakes out…“

Not anymore @Captainmycaptains - I had to break your bubble. The Labour Party have introduced a massive DETERRENT against private school education. It’s in their manifesto for all to see and they have 0 plans to effectively manage it on the ground. Go listen to Bridget on Ferrari LBC this morning and come back to us after that. She simply denies that anyone will switch to state or even change their choices. They will all just blindly pay up. If she actually bothers to look at it in detail, she would realise that the pure private all the way families are rare on the ground these days. Most people chop and change private/state depending on needs of the whole family, child in question, catchments, it’s complicated. People do the maths and the quality assessment etc - should I move, stay put, go private, state - the marginals are far bigger in number than they would care to admit.

The question about private schools goes deeper than tax, as shown up in all these threads.

We have a pretty much unique private school system in that the majority of the wealthy opt out of state schooling and consider private schools better (as opposed to more suitable for their child). Most of private school parents have a friendship group consisting virtually entirely of private school parents. Generally they don’t use the NHS either, apart from for A&E. There are a few state schools that some of these parents use (grammar schools and Blair’s children school (The London Oratory).

This has led to an incredibly separated society. The palpable fear of some private school parents have of state schools shows this, as does the envy some have of private schools.

This isn’t emulated in Europe. Yes, they do have private schools, but they are generally much cheaper and aren’t necessarily considered better.

As I said upthread, I think that VAT is probably the wrong approach. I think private schools should be forced to become part of the normal school system, sharing facilities when they aren’t being used, offering a certain percentage of 100% bursaries (and add ons) every year and opening up undersubscribed 6th form classes (some I have taught have had between 2 and 5 students) to talented state school pupils. Some private schools do all of the above already, but they are few and far between.

It is a real shame that parents didn’t take the ‘community’ part of the schools’ mission statements more seriously and push SLT to implement more of what I suggested-some did, to be fair but, again, they were few and far between.

There was and is a certain smugness in choosing an expensive education for one’s child, whereas both the children themselves and society would have massively benefited from greater integration of private schools with their community. Had this happened, the VAT (which I still think will be massively watered down) would have had zero public appeal.

“Because state boarding schools do not charge tuition fees, so there will nothing on which to pay VAT.

They're simply outside the scope of it.

The fees they do charge are for the "hotel" aspects of boarding.

I don't think they have yet clarified how they expect other boarding schools to deal with this. As most offer day places, then they have a built-in comparison IYSWIM, and there are not many full-boarding only schools left.

No there are not enough state boarding places for the number of forces/OGD families that require one, nor are they found in every part of the country. That's why families can opt for private schools if they prefer; both sheer numbers and also because proximity to extended family, ethos of school and style of pastoral care all matter significantly when parents are away. They're have avoided a "one-size-must-fit-all" approach, because it obviously won't work. And families won't entrust their DC to somewhere that's a poor fit, and so people may well leave.“

@mpsw - even for full boarding public schools, it would be very easy to introduce a handful of day pupils to set a non boarding price. Even the very top schools like Harrow and Eton have historically allowed a few teachers to occasionally send their girls/a few siblings in. They can introduce more day from good state schools overnight and fund 95% bursary and set a day school price. It is so easy to get around this.

Whatever the Labour Party will come up with, they won’t get to the big public schools and their endowments. And yet again this morning Bridget Philipson went on and on about Winchester College rather than acknowledging the real fact on the ground that is that there are hundreds of small private schools filling that gap that the state has failed to deliver for SEN children. It’s truly horrific that they are happy to just treat these kids as collateral damage in their pointless class wars against Harrow, Winchester and Eton.

What was clear in the debate last night Sunak vs Starmer - it is not private education that makes Sunak argue the way he does. It is bloody Oxford! Some in the Labour Party do not like the aggression of that type of debate. Take it up with Oxford and leave the disabled kids out of it. Phillipson another Oxford alumni and out of touch and probably only used to Winchester types from her uni days.

For the umpteenth time it's not a tax break

It is the legacy of an EU wide principle of no taxation on education.

It is only possible to change this because of Brexit

@RoseAndRose ,

That is semantics really. You could say the EU decided to give education a tax break, that the UK has now rescinded.

@Newbutoldfather
“We have a pretty much unique private school system in that the majority of the wealthy opt out of state schooling and consider private schools better (as opposed to more suitable for their child). Most of private school parents have a friendship group consisting virtually entirely of private school parents. Generally they don’t use the NHS either, apart from for A&E. There are a few state schools that some of these parents use (grammar schools and Blair’s children school (The London Oratory).“

Hate to break it to you, but you are completely out of date! Like 15-20 years behind the curve.

@Araminta1003 ,

You think? Maybe where you are, but certainly not where I or any of my friends are.

I do know of what I speak.

Education was completely exempt - it's not a tax break. It's completely separate.

Zero-rated items, that we kept zero-rated solely because they were not taxed before the qualifying year (1991?) but which other EU countries do have VAT on - they're the tax break. Things like basic food stuffs and children's clothes.

@Newbutoldfather - where in the country are you?
I am in London, professional middle to upper middle classes, elite uni background, which includes all of my friends from school and uni. Those sending to private schools now are in a tiny minority, just those who went into big law and banking or had 1 DC. The rest are in catchment state, planned years in advance. That includes academics, engineers, accountants, NHS, creative industries, journalism, authors etc etc also includes part time lawyers and those seeking a work life balance.
The fact is catchment state means you are stuck. You can’t move, you have to stay put. It is inefficient for society as a whole.

The truth is the elite middle classes have been priced out of private schooling so they are now using their power to get at those same schools. Just listen to how some of the Labour politicians speak about private schools cutting costs. Essentially, their friends whinge they cannot afford it anymore so those schools are now going to get it in the neck.

This is funny! Someone lives in a bubble. Private schools vary vastly in cost and standard.

Students and their families are equally varied and have different motivations.

@Araminta1003 ,

In ‘nice’ outer London, and I also taught in two private schools, similar background and friends to you. I am virtually the only one whose children go/went state.

Also, I stated wealthy, not upper middle classes, as class and wealth are not the same. I agree with you about who is currently using private schools, you can see parent’s jobs on ISAMs- very high percentage finance and legal (prob 50% of whole school, maybe 60% if you add in consulting).

So no other country taxes education. The EU prohibits VAT in education so the only reason Labour can do it is because of Brexit.

The proposed VAT on PS fees is unlikely to raise the sums mentioned and is quite likely to cost more to implement than it raises in tax revenue. Which goes against the principles on any tax that it should raise more than it costs to implement.

If the ideological reason is to create fairness and equality then surely it's far better to bring up the level of all state education rather than try and bring down the level of private education