To wonder if Private School parents think we can’t read?

[Captainmycaptains]

Work/volunteer in Education so following the whole VAT debate.

SM is full of private parent groups ‘organising’ to get the proposed VAT on fees cancelled - fine you would, wouldn’t you esp.if you’re used to getting your own way.

They’re advocating hassling local schools, councils, demanding stats and figures that don’t exist, wiring to MPs - telling people to ‘claim’ their state place to ‘disrupt’ the ‘system’ while also saying ‘ Obvs we won’t be taking Charlotte and Hugo out of school, we’ll find the money’ etc strive harder, getting granny to chip in’ but this might make the council ‘panic’.

Do they think that people in support of the VAT aren’t seeing/hearing/reading all of these plans???

the funniest one yet is the poster who said ‘ well going to claim our state school places then! See how they like that! We’ll going holiday, pay the mortgage down, shop at Waitrose and save £700k in the process, ha!’
I. no you aren’t 2. Okay - go for it! Who on earth would think £700k is worth it?? Behave like a normal person then…

YANBU - yeah, they’re noisy as expected but the rest of us are as think/ concerned as they seem to think. Also - it’s too late for Sept - waiting lists only…

YABU - applying for school places you have no intention of using is daft, and of course everyone can see what they’re trying to do.

They are not getting subsidised by not paying VAT - they are relieving pressure on an already unfunded system into which they have already paid their share of tax, no doubt at the highest rate. It's they who are subsiding the state system. If you want to point the finger, point the finger who pay nothing into the tax system to fund public services rather than people who pay twice. Apparently 52% of households take more out in benefits than they pay in taxation - those 52% certainly aren't parents sending their kids to private school.

No, and I don't see how you got that from my post.

I am agreeing there will be no mass exodus in the very short term. But I predict that there will be a reduction in numbers, that will occur at natural break points and decisions not to join the private sector (or join later).

I don't have DC at private school, but I think taxation on education is wrong, plus I would like us to stay closer to EU tax rules. There are changes that could be made to VAT, that are within the EU rules and which are likely to raise more for the Exchequer. I can see they would not be attractive to those who want us to stay outside EU and who very much welcome this policies that depart from EU principles (such as no taxation on education)

I'm not angry or bitter about any of the things you suggest I might be.

I totally agree with this.
There are children in the UK truly suffering. I wish MN was full of threads about these children. But the truth is most people do not care. Or not enough to do anything.
Children are being placed in unregistered private care homes with often very poor care provided. I care about those children.
Children with parents who love and care for them having to move from a private to a state school do not even register in my internal care o meter.
Frankly so many private school parents in these threads seem very out of touch with how much many families are struggling and what their children are experiencing.

I had a work colleague say to me that she has a friend with three kids in private school, so it's a 60% increase for her!

Er, no.

Anyway, I'm all for it myself.

@winterrabbit everyone pays tax in some form. Not using free services does not mean you are subsidising those services. I am not subsidising the library service by buying books instead of borrowing them from my local library.

Wow - this is one of the nastiest posts I've seen on mumsnet.

These are CHILDREN you are talking about.

Do you feel like this about the child who is at a specialist SEN school? Or how about the children at the Royal Ballet School? Or the ND child who was bullied at state and is now coping in a tiny class in a private school?

How do you feel about my entirely state educated child - she's thriving in state despite SEN. We could have just about afforded fees for a private school - instead found a great state option and spend the money on private tutoring, extra curricular and being able to say yes to tickets for Taylor Swift.

Nobody is pleased whe theymsee a law changed to become detrimental to them. All I can say is hard cheese.

I don’t understand the glee at any parents stressed about the VAT increase. I don’t think highly of the extremist attitudes on either side of this debate tbh.

Fundamentally I agree with VAT on private schools, but I am still capable of empathy for the many many not-trust fund families who will likely face extra costs to keep their kids with their established friends etc.

And it will impact state places. It cannot NOT impact them. I imagine, however, it’s unlikely to be a leap for private parents straight to 20%, more likely the schools will absorb the cost for a few years and increase slowly so it’s more bearable.

Regardless, everyone is just trying to do what they think is best for their kids.

@OhCrumbsWhereNow if you think that is the nastiest post you have not read any posts by parents who are very poor and struggling to provide for their children. There are usually multiple comments saying the children should not have been born.

The worst kind of snobbery comes from people moving into catchment areas of oversubscribed schools which, in our case, would have cost more than private school fees. Tax them instead.

In year 6 of my pre prep, 5 DC (25% of class)went to state secondary.

DC1, dad is a banker in Liverpool Street. Parents bought 1.5m house 2 streets from school. DC went straight into top sets

DC2, lives 100m from DC1.Parents sold massive £2m house to move next to school to send 3 DC there,

DC3, moved from London to here. Bought £1m house in same street as DC1&2. In all top sets

DC4, dad is banker, bought £1m house in new estate 5 mins walk to school

DC5, Dad works in city of London, owns other properties. 10 min walk to state.

All have other siblings. Parents sent to state primary, then moved them to good state school. All millionaires. None of the mums work. None of them are doing fundraising, or PTA. All their kids didn’t do SATS but went straight into top set maths.

I’d argue that their presence is actually detrimental to the other students. They shuffle in and take up the top set places, pushing others down.

Will parents necessarily have to pay more, or will private schools absorb some of the additional cost?

Given the drastic cuts to staff, facilities etc that state schools have to make to balance the budget each year (or in many cases, to manage their deficit) couldn't private schools just cut back on a few things too?

I have seen very few of the comments the op mentions. I do have friends though who are genuinely going to have to move their kids. This VAT should be applied to new entrants only so you know exactly what you are signing up for. My kids are state educated but it saddens me that the disruption to kids education is almost mocked by people. Just because most of them come from families that don’t struggle doesn’t make them less deserving of sympathy.

You do know that books are zero-rated?

You are paying no VAT on them at the bookshop, and neither is the library when they buy theirs

Fair enough but all I can say is "big house in outstanding grammar catchment area". (And yes that is a tongue in cheek comment)

What tax loophole?

Is there a tax loophole on nurseries? Or University? How about adult education classes? Or piano lessons?

To be fair, I don't think many people equate "private school" with specialist SEN schools or schools like Royal Ballet. I know I certainly don't, and I hope that support will be put in place one way or another for private SEN provision schools - what communication has your school sent about this? (Don't need to answer I'm just interested in how it would work fot specialist education providers)

I think the debate is for the majority of private school children who go to their local independent and whose parents are up in arms about having to pay tax.

Well aren’t you lovely.

what are Labour going to do about the issues you raise given they have pledged not to increase taxation, not to borrow?

VAT on school fees won’t solve any of these problems.

@Superhansrantowindsor If someone posted asking for advice about how to support their child moving fro9m a private school to a state school I would be helpful. But I do not think it is a situation worthy of hand wringing from strangers. Changing schools when you have loving and supportive parents need not be a big deal.

Yes- Eton , Harrow etc. but the much smaller independents are going to really struggle. Ultimately the gap will widen between the haves and have nots.

More snobbery. So people who send there children to state school don't their best? Because that is what sounds like you're implying.

@RoseAndRose Yes I know. I am talking about the concept that not using a free public service somehow means you are subsidising it. It makes no logical sense. And you can see this clearly once you start applying it to other free public services.

Labour have not been clear about taxes. They haven't confirmed they won't raise other taxes like capitals gains etc. I expect more tax hikes once they're in power.

Yes op comes across as very bitter.

The ( perhaps unpalatable) truth is parents paying for private education do take a lot of strain off an already struggling system. Although many believe they will choke and gag but pay up anyway, every family has a different level at which that will simply be impossible for them. Private school parents include some very humble types. They don’t all spend all their lives in a blissful existence choosing between holiday destinations and interior decorators or the names Harriet and Annabel; many of them work full time ( and very hard) and go without on several fronts ( our local state primary has much more expensive cars at drop off than our local independent!) to give their children a chance to go - often because they have struggled in the state system for reasons particular to them. It isn’t always because they can oh so easily afford it. Some of the talk about pulling their children out will be bluster, but much of it won’t be- and I can’t see how that actually helps anyone other than those who want to think “ ha ha there’s Hugo in his new state school uniform. I feel so much less envious now.” Lots of parents want to give their children a private education and the reason they don’t is because they can’t stretch to the funding. This will enlarge that group. The tax will therefore be on a smaller body of fee payers than I suspect they have budgeted for, and the state system will require more investment.

I changed school many times in my youth (army child). My parents were lovely and supportive. I still struggled and my sister even more so. Any child being negatively impacted by a situation that is out their hands has my sympathy.

There are small private schools with poor education who really should close. It will cause some disruption to individual children if they do so, but overall will be a positive thing.