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Paula Vennells is history but now at the Post Office Inquiry is Fujitsu distinguished engineer Gareth Jenkins - thread 4

951 replies

nauticant · 25/06/2024 21:22

A continuation of this thread:

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/5094266-paula-vennells-was-done-the-other-week-the-post-office-inquiry-is-now-questioning-associates-and-others-thread-3

When the hearings are going on, live-streaming can be found here:

https://www.youtube.com/@postofficehorizonitinquiry947/featured

All of the previous hearings can be found here:

https://www.youtube.com/@postofficehorizonitinquiry947/videos

OP posts:
Thread gallery
14
Harassedevictee · 27/06/2024 15:28

Do you think they could prosecute Paula Vennell’s on the basis she managed to alter the Royal Mail prospectus to remove reference to possible legal cases?
This seems to be financial impropriety and she claimed it as hers with the “ I’ve earned my keep” quote.

JuneIsBustinOutAllOver · 27/06/2024 15:28

Lunde · 27/06/2024 15:18

He is on much stickier ground here with the omissions from his witness statements and apparent eagerness to do the bidding of the PO lawyers.

I think it shows that he initially didn’t know what he’d done and thought he was in a good position. He now understands that he’s not.

On Tuesday he very much reminded me of my old Head of Department, who also has a Maths degree from Cambridge. Same manner, grey hair and beard, just a year or so older. Not today, though.

DanielGault · 27/06/2024 15:30

Lunde · 27/06/2024 15:26

I assumed that he has been feeling unwell - hence Sir Wyn asking if he wanted a longer break. Like the early lunch taken when JB was unwell earlier in the week.

I didn't get that from it but I'm not feeling very sympathetic I suppose!

Lunde · 27/06/2024 15:33

DanielGault · 27/06/2024 15:30

I didn't get that from it but I'm not feeling very sympathetic I suppose!

It's not usual for Sir Wyn to ask witnesses if the break has been long enough

nauticant · 27/06/2024 15:34

Jason Beer's had a good run today but his voice is beginning to fail him.

OP posts:
Lunde · 27/06/2024 15:41

Hopefully JB with stock up on Strepsils and Halls mentolyptus!

Is it JB's last full day? I guess that there will be a lot of core participant action tomorrow

DanielGault · 27/06/2024 15:44

Would you not think to ASK what expert witness meant when you were going into court FFS? I don't buy this.

nauticant · 27/06/2024 15:45

I did wonder if day 4 would be given over completely to cross-examination by counsel for Core Partipants. Re-examination by counsel for GJ could be interesting.

OP posts:
Lunde · 27/06/2024 15:46

Jarnail Singh - not around for the Seema Misra trial ... despite being PO head of criminal law.

nauticant · 27/06/2024 15:49

nauticant · 27/06/2024 15:45

I did wonder if day 4 would be given over completely to cross-examination by counsel for Core Partipants. Re-examination by counsel for GJ could be interesting.

https://3rblaw.com/barrister/clair-dobbin-kc/

OP posts:
nauticant · 27/06/2024 15:54

Yes, it looks like Beer is wrapping up now which could mean a full, very bruising, day given over to cross-examination by counsel for Core Participants. (Not "parti-pants" as I wrote above, which would be another thing altogether.)

OP posts:
DanielGault · 27/06/2024 15:55

nauticant · 27/06/2024 15:54

Yes, it looks like Beer is wrapping up now which could mean a full, very bruising, day given over to cross-examination by counsel for Core Participants. (Not "parti-pants" as I wrote above, which would be another thing altogether.)

Parti pants sounds quite entertaining 😂

nauticant · 27/06/2024 15:56

It finally dawned on Fujitsu in December 2013 that they needed to provide expert support to Post Office in a structured and controlled way.

OP posts:
prh47bridge · 27/06/2024 16:17

minou123 · 27/06/2024 15:14

Thank you @Lunde , thats how I am understanding this.

Its slowly dawning on me just how bad and horrific the Post Office acted.
(Just to be clear, I understand how bad the PO are,but in fact its wirse rhan what i thought)

But, the fact they changed how our Justice system works by making SPMR prove themselves innocent has only just dawned on me.

No wonder Judge Fraser and the Court of Appeal judge were bloody furious in their judgements and gave Post Office such a hammering.
The Post Office essentially bastardised our legal system.

Maybe I'm super slow, but I'm starting to get it now.

Post Office were helped by the government changing the law in 1999 so that the courts presume that evidence derived from a computer is reliable. The Law Commission that recommended this change and the courts interpreting the change have totally failed to understand the distinction between hardware (generally reliable) and software (anything but, particularly with a large, complex, bespoke system like Horizon). It is a rebuttable presumption, but it requires the defendant faced with computer evidence that they have stolen money to prove that the computer is wrong, rather than the prosecution proving that the computer is right.

To make matters worse, the courts don't like "fishing expeditions", where the defendant asks for disclosure of a lot of information in the hopes of finding something that will help their case. They expect defendants to be able to show that their request for disclosure is limited and strictly necessary. As a result the courts generally supported Post Office's refusal to disclose information that might have shown whether Horizon was working reliably, with Post Office arguing that such disclosure was costly, time consuming, wasteful and unnecessary. Defendants were therefore denied access to the evidence they needed to prove that Horizon was unreliable.

Even if the courts had ordered disclosure, it seems likely that Post Office would not have disclosed everything relevant. After all, they denied the existence of the Known Errors Log for a long time then, when they finally admitted that there was such a thing, maintained that it was simply entries such as "hit the printer here if it isn't working" and wasn't relevant to Bates vs Post Office. It was, of course, highly relevant and was one of the major pieces of evidence that helped to prove that Horizon was unreliable.

prettybird · 27/06/2024 16:57

My father (who was a paediatric radiologist) took the occasions that he was called as an expert witness (usually in cases of alleged Non-Accidental Injury) very seriously.

But there again, he was an intelligent and thoughtful man who cared about the consequences of what he said Wink

(He did end up, after a number of occasions where he had to sit around all day waiting and ending up not being called, telling the court that he would only go when they were ready to call him court was about half an hour away as he couldn't justify the time away from his work at the Sick Kids Hospital).

Oblomov24 · 27/06/2024 17:01

Loving the thread. She disgusts me, total narcissist, no shame or regret. He too, playing his I didn't know card it pitiful.

KnitnNatterAuntie · 27/06/2024 18:08

This is totally irrelevant to what is going on in the enquiry this week, but it's a small question that is bugging me . . .

I've just watched the evidence given by Elaine Cottam . . . Does anyone know why some witnesses are allowed to give their evidence by video link whereas others (including, I believe, at least one witness from Scotland) have to attend the enquiry in London?

Lunde · 27/06/2024 18:25

KnitnNatterAuntie · 27/06/2024 18:08

This is totally irrelevant to what is going on in the enquiry this week, but it's a small question that is bugging me . . .

I've just watched the evidence given by Elaine Cottam . . . Does anyone know why some witnesses are allowed to give their evidence by video link whereas others (including, I believe, at least one witness from Scotland) have to attend the enquiry in London?

I expect if they give evidence that they cannot travel for some good reason such as medical issues or caring responsibilities that it would likely be granted.

I mean even Sir Wyn, Inquiry chair, appears by video link on some days.

KnitnNatterAuntie · 27/06/2024 18:44

Lunde · 27/06/2024 18:25

I expect if they give evidence that they cannot travel for some good reason such as medical issues or caring responsibilities that it would likely be granted.

I mean even Sir Wyn, Inquiry chair, appears by video link on some days.

Many thanks . . . that makes so much sense

Oblomov24 · 27/06/2024 19:03

Let's hope he's got his party pants 🩲 on! Grin

GeminiGiggles · 27/06/2024 19:52

Just coming to end of catching up. My favourite quote today is "so you think he was good at reading?" with a incredulous, withering look 🤣

GeminiGiggles · 27/06/2024 20:01

We're 5minutes 18secs into Elaine Cottam and howling at her already! Wtaf is she on??? Even JB seems bored with her already!

minou123 · 27/06/2024 20:44

Thank you so much @prh47bridge .

You've honestly blown my mind .

I feel like a right numpty, because everyone else on this thread has probably undrrstood this from the beginning 😂

I'm not a lawyer, but I imagine everyone in the legal profession are incredibly angry/sad/pissed off of how POL lawyers and others have behaved.

There must be frustrations working in the legal system, but from what I understand everyone; solicitors, lawyers, barristers, KC, judges all hold the core principles of the justice system and the right to a fair trial at the heart of everything they do.

They defend it and fight for it.

Completely understand now why Mr Stein, Mr Henry, Ms Page and Mr Maloney go absolutely off it when it's their turn to cross examine.

CustardySergeant · 27/06/2024 20:52

GeminiGiggles · 27/06/2024 19:52

Just coming to end of catching up. My favourite quote today is "so you think he was good at reading?" with a incredulous, withering look 🤣

Can you remember roughly when that was please? Also, who was the 'he' being referred to?

GeminiGiggles · 27/06/2024 21:16

CustardySergeant · 27/06/2024 20:52

Can you remember roughly when that was please? Also, who was the 'he' being referred to?

Can't remember exactly but it was when they were talking about the calls to the help desk and had GJ analysed them and his response was

GJ "No I didn't analyse because I assumed (whoever he is) had analysed them"
JB Why didn't you analyse them
GJ well I thought he was better at it

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