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Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Paula Vennells is history but now at the Post Office Inquiry is Fujitsu distinguished engineer Gareth Jenkins - thread 4

951 replies

nauticant · 25/06/2024 21:22

A continuation of this thread:

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/5094266-paula-vennells-was-done-the-other-week-the-post-office-inquiry-is-now-questioning-associates-and-others-thread-3

When the hearings are going on, live-streaming can be found here:

https://www.youtube.com/@postofficehorizonitinquiry947/featured

All of the previous hearings can be found here:

https://www.youtube.com/@postofficehorizonitinquiry947/videos

OP posts:
Thread gallery
14
SparksFlyUpward · 03/07/2024 16:51

Yup. He really didn't like being questioned by Jo Hamilton's counsel. Lots of wrapping up his lanyard and closing of folders. He can't wait to get out of there.

minou123 · 03/07/2024 16:52

I've missed today <shakes fists at sky> thank you everyone for the running commentary.

Something to look forward to watching this evening

SparksFlyUpward · 03/07/2024 17:13

Like so many of these smug types who sit on multiple boards I suspect this was just another 'corporate in trouble' gig that TP thought would add a bit of diversity to his CV. But as Mr Stein put it, this was not the National Trust, the Post Office could prosecute people, put them in prison. But for TP, on his day and a half a week, it was just another business with 'issues'.

prh47bridge · 04/07/2024 09:52

I think yesterday's evidence demonstrated one of the problems with corporate governance.

Part time non-executive directors have two main functions. They should use their knowledge and experience to help guide the business, and they should hold the business to account. This works well when the CEO, executive directors and senior management are reasonably honest with the non-execs. It is problematic when the CEO, etc. lie to the non-execs and actively hide information from them. Non-execs often trust the CEO and their team unless and until it becomes blatantly obvious that there is a problem.

I know of two businesses, both much smaller than the Post Office, where the CEO got away with lying to the board for 2 years or more. In one case it came to an end when a member of the leadership team "accidentally" copied the chairman on an email that made it clear beyond any doubt that the CEO was lying to the board. Unfortunately, that came too late to save the business which collapsed into insolvency a few weeks later. In the other case, one of the non-execs eventually decided to visit the head office unannounced. They discovered that the CEO and CFO had been having an affair and were colluding to hide the true financial position from the board. In that case the business survived, but only because one of the non-execs gave it a large interest-free loan to cover the black hole in the accounts.

In Parker's case it is clear that the handover from Perkins was inadequate to the point of being almost non-existent. He was not aware that Perkins, the board and the civil service thought that Vennells was a dud. Vennells gave him a briefing on Horizon which she claimed to have written herself. It was actually written by Mark Davies, the PR guy, and was a pack of lies.

Parker then commissioned the Swift review. This review wasn't great but it did show that there were problems. Parker appears to have failed to grasp the seriousness of the shortcomings it uncovered. It is possible other non-execs or the government would have picked up on this if the review had been shared with them. However, Post Office set out to bury it. Jane MacLeod, Post Office's General Counsel, told Parker that the Swift review was legally privileged and that he couldn't share it with anyone. Many non-lawyers don't understand privilege so may have accepted her word on this, as Parker did. After all, she was an experienced lawyer. But she was lying. The document was not privileged and, as a lawyer, she knew full well that she as giving Parker false advice and that, in reality, his responsibilities as a director meant he was required to share the review with the board. Parker then made the mistake of expecting the legal department to implement the recommendations in the review. MacLeod seems to have led him to believe that she and her team were doing so. In reality, they were trying to bury it and, when the Bates legal action started, took the opportunity to come up with some advice saying that Parker should stop the work completely on grounds that sounded credible but were actually spurious.

Having said all that, it is clear that there were warning signs for Parker that he failed to pick up or act on (as was also the case for the non-execs in the two businesses I mentioned earlier). His attempt to say that the litigation was the best way of resolving matters ignores the Post Office's approach to the case. Given that Post Office claimed in court that the case posed an existential threat to them, Parker should have been far more involved than he was. If he had been involved, he would have seen that the Post Office's approach was to resist disclosure by denying the existence of documents that existed and, when that failed, by misrepresenting their contents and denying their relevance, even though they were clearly relevant. He would have seen that the Post Office was putting in dispute matters where they knew the subpostmasters were correct, a classic example of this being Post Office's insistence that Horizon had a "dispute" button that subpostmasters could use if they disagreed with Horizon's figures - there was never any such button. And he would have been aware that the Post Office's strategy in the litigation was to attempt to ramp up costs so that the subpostmasters would run out of money.

He was a semi-detached chairman who, at the most critical time for the business, sought to reduce his hours from 1.5 days a week to 2 days a month. I don't think anything he has done or didn't do crosses the line into criminality, but his failures as chairman enabled those who were conducting what looks to me like a criminal conspiracy to pervert the course of justice.

Oblomov24 · 04/07/2024 09:53

The Post Officee* has been pressed on why it "does not accept" the overturned conviction of a former sub-postmaster three years after they were cleared.
Edward Henry KC, who has been representing Teju Adedayo throughout the Horizon Inquiryy*, pointed to a written submission provided by the Post Office which said it “does not accept” that the now-quashed conviction of Ms Adedayo from 2005 was “unsafe”.
Ms Adedayo had falsely confessed to being responsible for the shortfalls at her post office in Kent to avoid the risk of ending up in prison.
She was eventually cleared of any wrongdoing in 2021.
A quote from the Post Office’s submission was read out during the questioning of the organisation’s former chair, Tim Parker, on Wednesday.
Former union leader told Post Office about subpostmasters 'sniffing around''*
Mr Henry asked Mr Parker his view on the Post Office “effectively branding (Ms Adedayo) a criminall* despite her conviction having been quashed”.
Quoting the submission, he said: “The inquiry will be aware that this (Ms Adedayo’s case) is the sole case study where the Post Office does not acceptt* that the conviction was unsafe”.
Mr Henry described it as a “victimisation” of his client and asked Mr Parker if he rejected it, to which he responded: “Unless I have got all the facts at my disposal … I don’t think you can expect me to deliver a black and white response on this.”
He added: “I’m no longer obviously at the Post Office which precludes me a little bit from knowing what all the background is.”
Mr Parker was appointed chair of Post Office Ltd in October 2015 and held the position until he resigned on September 30 2022.
He joined the organisation in the midst of an ongoing dispute between the company and numerous sub-postmasters regarding its Horizon computer system.

Why? Why aren't we pressing him on this. If you can't answer, who can?
Rather you should be able to answer. You've only just resigned a year ago. You should be held accountable for the 7 years you were chair.

Oblomov24 · 04/07/2024 09:58

Prh makes very good points as usual.
So have other posters, many of which have no legal background. If us peasants can write reasonable questions, why are PO employees getting away with being questioned so poorly?

nauticant · 04/07/2024 10:50

This sums up yesterday nicely:

https://www.postofficescandal.uk/post/post-office-chairman-tim-parker-fatalistic-attraction/

OP posts:
PerkingFaintly · 04/07/2024 12:38

Thoughts on Parker aside, yesterday was very useful for revealing (even more of) the active conspiracy by the cabal to prevent information reaching him, reaching a wider audience, or being discovered via data analysis in the first place.

No wonder Jane MacLeod is in New Zealand.

Lunde · 04/07/2024 15:12

Just watched the rest of of Elaine Cottam's evidence O M G

I don't know if she was totally clueless about her job as area manager, has an issue with serious cognitive decline or was just being obstructive ... But she was such hard work for JB

  1. couldn't remember very basic things or gave contradictory statements - like when she worked for the PO, what jobs she did or dates ... "Could you give us a decade?" JB asks wearily
  2. constantly contradicted herself - EC There were no technical issues with Horizon ... so why asks JB did you call the Horizon helpline several times on the basis of problems with Horizon on behalf of a prosecuted SPM? EC well I took their word (hinting that SPM was a liar)
  3. EC I wasn't involved with court. JB But you gave a witness statement to the court ... EC But I didn't write it JB: But you signed to say it was truthful. EC Well I might have signed it but I didn't write it. ... JB; so did you carry out the things you swore to in your witness statements? EC: can't remember

At the end of the testimony JB asks for 15 minutes to "Just take a break to reorientate ourselves in time and place"

Oblomov24 · 04/07/2024 15:17

This is an independent public statutory Inquiry established to gather a clear account of the implementation and failings of the Horizon IT system at the Post Office over its lifetime.

Scope of the Inquiry
It will consider all other relevant evidence, listen to those that have been affected, understand what went wrong, and assess whether lessons have been learned and whether concrete changes have taken place, or are underway, at Post Office Ltd.

One has to question. An enquiry. Costs millions. Basically funded by the tax payer then! And achieving what? Is it doing a good job? Not exactly pressing questioning of Chair, Vennell's etc. I've seen witnesses picked apart and ripped to shreds better on bloody Columbo. And nothing is going to happen to any of these people, none of them will be fined, convicted of anything, titles or qualifications rescinded. Nothing.

What realistically is going to be achieved here? Some of us could have ripped Vennell's apart better! Wink

Oblomov24 · 04/07/2024 15:39

Paula Vennells joined the Post Office as group network director in 2007 having begun her business career at Unilever in 1981, later securing management positions at L'Oreal, Dixons, Argos and Whitbread.

she stood down from her role as chair of Imperial College Healthcare NHS Trust.

In 2021, after the convictions of 39 subpostmasters were quashed, she resigned from her non-executive directorships at the retailer Dunelm and the supermarket chain Morrisons.

The Imperial College pisses me off. Because I was at both Kings College Hospital and Imperial today.

How are such organisations hiring such a Clown. I hope she never works again.

And him. Chair.

All of them.

It's frightening.

And she pulled the wool over the eyes of Countess, Archbishop, senior politicians, Board Members. How embarrassing for all of them too.

prh47bridge · 04/07/2024 16:33

Oblomov24 · 04/07/2024 15:17

This is an independent public statutory Inquiry established to gather a clear account of the implementation and failings of the Horizon IT system at the Post Office over its lifetime.

Scope of the Inquiry
It will consider all other relevant evidence, listen to those that have been affected, understand what went wrong, and assess whether lessons have been learned and whether concrete changes have taken place, or are underway, at Post Office Ltd.

One has to question. An enquiry. Costs millions. Basically funded by the tax payer then! And achieving what? Is it doing a good job? Not exactly pressing questioning of Chair, Vennell's etc. I've seen witnesses picked apart and ripped to shreds better on bloody Columbo. And nothing is going to happen to any of these people, none of them will be fined, convicted of anything, titles or qualifications rescinded. Nothing.

What realistically is going to be achieved here? Some of us could have ripped Vennell's apart better! Wink

There is no need for counsel to be aggressive (and, in terms of an inquiry just as in court, being aggressive is generally ineffective). It is far better to simply pick a witness to pieces, show that their evidence is inconsistent and/or contradicted by contemporaneous documents. Give them plenty of rope and allow them to hang themselves. Many of these witnesses have been thoroughly shredded, including Vennells. It may not be obvious to you, but it should be obvious to the chair. Don't write this off until the report appears.

An inquiry cannot fine people or convict them of anything (unless they refuse to co-operate with the inquiry). However, this inquiry has already triggered investigations by the SRA and the Bar Council into many of the lawyers involved. For all witnesses, the evidence they give to the inquiry can be used against them in a court of law. That is why the Metropolitan Police is one of the core participants in the inquiry. Alan Bates is keeping close tabs on the police investigation and has made it clear that he will start private prosecutions if no-one is charged.

None of that guarantees that people will face consequences. But it is too early to say for definite that nothing will happen. I hope people are prosecuted and that it extends a long way up the managerial tree.

Blue444 · 04/07/2024 17:58

Does anyone know if evidence shows that Jane Mac loud has an committed an offence, can she be extradited to face court?

prh47bridge · 04/07/2024 18:39

Blue444 · 04/07/2024 17:58

Does anyone know if evidence shows that Jane Mac loud has an committed an offence, can she be extradited to face court?

I don't know whether the authorities would pursue that but yes, she could be extradited.

Oblomov24 · 04/07/2024 20:40

Prh I wasn't suggesting aggression. But it also doesn't feel like they've been given enough rope to hang themselves. As you said, we await the report. But we all know that they (the report) are notoriously historically disappointing.

minou123 · 09/07/2024 05:32

Now the election is over, back to the Post Office Inquiry.

This week is the Shareholder Executives from UK Government Investments - heard a lot about them, still don't understand what they do, so at least it should be enlightening.

Next week is the MPs turn, Jo Swinson, Ed Davey etc.
I'm sure they have been coached to an inch of thier lives and it'll be "its the PO fault".
But, from a Media/PR perspective, Ed Davey seems to have an improved image from the election, I wonder if giving evidence will undo all of that?

eeyoredebbie · 09/07/2024 10:04

Bedtime story this guy I think…

Peregrina · 09/07/2024 10:10

No Jason Beer today?

eeyoredebbie · 09/07/2024 10:17

No he lets the others have a turn now and again lol (especially when they are not overly interesting/“important”) - my opinion only !

eeyoredebbie · 09/07/2024 10:35

https://www.thelawyer.com/the-public-is-the-client-jason-beer-kc-on-being-on-the-side-of-the-angels/

whole article a good read but this bit answers PP question

Beer’s vast experience in inquiries has meant he’s developed a particular way of doing things. When putting together counsel teams, Beer chooses counsel from other sets, not just 5 Essex. This is a rarer move, as many barristers fill the benches with people from their own sets.
Beer says: “My senior clerk hates this – but I’m a big believer in going to other sets for talent. In a public inquiry, you’ve got to pick horses for the courses. I pick people I think will do a similar job or the same job as me.
“So, in the case of the Post Office Inquiry, I thought it needed serious people. Not flowery advocates. Not shouters and screamers who want to beat the witnesses up. I wanted hard-working, serious practitioners. I find people by watching them and experiencing what they’re like myself. So, for example, my main junior, Julian Blake [of 11KBW], I had worked with him before, and I knew what I was getting.”
Those who have been regularly watching the Post Office Inquiry will have also noticed that Beer’s whole counsel team (comprising seven barristers from 5 Essex, 11KBW, 2 Temple Gardens and 6KBW) questions witnesses, not just himself and Blake. This is also more unusual in inquiries, where silks tend to keep the questioning for themselves.
“It’s no good for the barristers, and it does their career no good if they’re just a document sifter and are always behind the scenes,” says Beer. “When they apply to be a recorder or to go up a panel, or become a silk, it’s no good saying ‘I spent three years in a back-office sifting documents,’ they’ve got to have some advocacy experience.”
“This is particularly the case for women,” continues Beer. “I’ve seen inquiries where they fill the back room with female barristers because they can fit it in with other commitments they might have and don’t give them the advocacy roles.”
He adds: “Another reason is that I wouldn’t be able to do it all the time. I’d be working 24 hours a day, questioning back-to-back witnesses for two and a half years.”

‘The public is the client’: Jason Beer KC on being on the side of the angels

“In what you may in due course conclude is the worst miscarriage of justice in recent British legal history…” These were the words of Jason Beer KC, lead counsel to the Post Office Horizon IT Inquiry…

https://www.thelawyer.com/the-public-is-the-client-jason-beer-kc-on-being-on-the-side-of-the-angels

DanielGault · 09/07/2024 10:40

You'd miss Jason 😔

DanielGault · 09/07/2024 10:46

I can't remember.....

Quebeccles · 09/07/2024 11:12

Very good article (though typically they have to say this thread is 'about Mr Beer' 🙄

eeyoredebbie · 09/07/2024 11:46

There’s another thread somewhere about crushes on Mr Beer

it was picked up on the Reddit thread

www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/5081097-jason-beer-kc-weird-crush-aibu