to be cross my ds has measles because other parents didn't vaccinate their children

[snickersnack]

He's 11 months old, poor little thing . Fortunately he's going to be ok - he got off quite lightly, I think - but it was scary and he was really poorly for a day or so. Spent 10 hours in A&E yesterday while he had chest x-rays, blood tests, IV fluids etc. Now we're just waiting to see if his sister,who's 2, gets it - she's had one dose of MMR already so fingers crossed she's immune.

We live in an area where immunisation rates are among the lowest in the country. Now I have to go and tell all parents of the other babies he's met recently that their children might be at risk as well...

You have to include famillies ike mine in the debate

because youa re including us in your 'should vaccinate' decree.

You cannot criticise and then refuse to acknowledge our reasonings- even if you disagree with them!

ASD is very, very real. Nobody knows the causes but it ahs passed the 1% mark and is rising. In the past famillies like ours might have been given 'tolerance' when we avoided jabs, but ASD is rising above the level where herd immunity works- and as such the issue needs considering. making single jabs available for us- would that be so ahrd? no, but it would solve lots of problems, including many cases of measles infection.

In my heart am not convinced that MMR and ASD are related but as a mother of 2 kids on the spectrum and 2 not, why on earth would I take any risks? yes I care about other peoples children- but I have to put mine first.

I am not discussing individuals, that's plain stupid to ask me whether your other children should take the risk with the vaccines, who would expect you to do that?

I have stipulated that immunise the masses can afford to leave out exceptions, simple maths.

Posie, for some families, the risk between MMR and autism is irrefutable.

It is very hard to see how severe, regressive autism with associated bowel problems could have been missed until just a few days after MMR. I am talking about cases where a child develops normally, is happy, eating well, walking and talking, sometimes even potty trained, and then they are given one small injection. And everyhting changes. And doctors (and you, it seems, as you say autism "picked up" following MMR, not acquired) dismiss it as a coincidence.

Of course personal stories are relevant to the debate. If the government (and you, and a lot of other poeple around the world) would just open their minds to the possibility that thee is a link between the two, research carefully and appropriately, and possibly develop some screening tests to show which children might be at risk (there is a lot of research around which suggests this would be possible) then I think you would find that personal stories would be a starting point for gathering enough info to start to make these moves.

These are not "friend of a friend" heresay stories. They are very real, and are happening all over the world. People not listening, and simlpy saying "your experience is not relevant because it doesn't fit what the government tells me" are helping to perpetuate the myth that all is safe because the nice people in charge tell me it is so.

I just have not seen any conclusive evidence, and have searched everytime my child is due their MMR, that there is a link.
Like I said I am open to have my mind changed.

Er you seem to be PosieParker. We know that physiologically ds3 is very similar to ds1. We know he has physiological markers for autism. Why on earth would I increase his risk of triggering autism? He has a high enough risk already.

He will by the way be more at risk from some of the diseases than the average child as well. So that's the risk we take. He doesn't get off scott free because we don't vaccinate, and nor are we stupid enough to think he does. You forget that many of us on here have children who are very severely disabled. DS1 goes to school (SLD/PMLD) with children who have been damaged by diseases - we know what these diseases can do. We also know the other side and understand that there is no simple answer for some of us.

You will never 'eradicate' the risk of measles. The vaccine doesn't work well enough and there have been outbreaks in 100% vaccinated populations. And it appears that it might be mutating anyway - in India a new form seems to have appeared that is very dangerous - worse than the original form- and is not protected against by vaccination.

If 'eradication' is the name of the game then we should be giving single jabs anyway as recent research is showing that single mumps is more effective than mumps vaccine given as MMR.

I know personally one child who developed encephalitis very shortly after the MMR (not the person on the video I'm talking about people I have spoken to individuallly), one (now very disabled little boy) who had massive intensive care needing seizures following the MMR (never had any before or since), and one child who lost speech following the MMR (when the child was just short of 4- this was no 'mother didn't notice there was something wrong').

I know other people who have had milder reactions following the MMR. I know many other mothers of autistic/disabled children who claim no link with the MMR (I'm one of them).

This is not surprising given that the researchers working in this field suggest that 7% of children have had their autism triggered by their MMR. You won't be falling over these people. Their children are not common. And so we can all get away with ignoring them if we want to.

Or we could listen, learn, investigate and try and ensure that vulnerable children are protected by a different vaccination schedule.

That shouldn't be controversial.

yurt1, I will post this again as obviously you haven't read it the other times. I do not think that all families with predispositions to autism or other children with other health implications should vaccinate, I think that all others should. We then get the majority vaccinated.

I know a child who is very severely epileptic and autistic following a series of febrile convulsions shortly after the MMR. He was developing perfectly normally before that, walking, talking, laughing etc, but regressed to a newborn like state in just a few weeks. His mother is devastated every time she sees video footage of how he was at 13 months, vs now. He is now 12 and will never live independently.

Who is saying don't investigate? I think most people are saying don't respond with a knee jerk action or non-action without the relevant information. It's all very well putting people in the 'vaccinate' camp in a box of ignorance and absolutes but this simply isn't true.

Thank god vaccinations aren't compulsory.

duchese, I know a boy who has cerebal pausy following a home birth it doesn't mean I think everyone should have a caesarean. These cases are heartbreaking and as I have three healthy children I have no real scope for true empathy, although I can try. I just think about how worried I am carrying my baby when someone mentions meaasles and how horrific those illnesses we try to prevent are.

And to my mind, the difference between damage caused by measles and that caused by vaccines is clear to me (and sorry if I am repeating anything already said as I have not read the whole thread- it's one of those emotive topics that never finds a satisfactory resolution and just goes around in circles): A parent chooses to administer a vaccine. The though of deliberately damaging my child with a vaccine would no more occur to me than would picking up a stick and beating them black and blue. If they get measles, I am willing to take as many weeks out as I have to nurse them back to health.

I know people who have been damaged by measles- mostly blindness in one eye, or deafness. This is NOTHING on the scale of what my friend's son has suffered and will continue to suffer daily from the vaccine.

Having experienced far milder negative but still medium term and worrying reactions in my toddler firstborn (gut problems, sudden appearance of exzema all over his body, clinginess, decreased communication), I was very unwilling to repeat the experience, either for him or for his sisters nor risk further or more irreversible damage. So yes, my children are wandering around unvaccinated against MMR

But the problem is, Posie, that the MMR is not effective. My stepchildren (aged 19 and 17) are probably as at risk from mumps as my dd2 is (totally unvaccinated). This is far more serious for my stepchildren, as adults (and especially my stepson) than it is for my dd2 at 15 months old.

There is, I'm afraid, a lot evidence that shows this, yet it is still not possible to give the single jabs, which are more effective.

I do understand your concerns, but still do not nderstand your position that I should vaccinate my dd2, and accept any probable damage to her as her lot in life and just one of those htings, so that you can sit comfortably knowing oyur children are safe. The risk of damage to my dd2 is a lot higher than the risk of complications in mumps to your children, for example.

Well with your personal experiences I am not surprised and I don't think anyone would blame you. But if by not vaccinating a child down the road died and I lost my baby I would be just as regretful about the choices of those that didn't vaccinate without a true thought for others.

I don't have a position that would ask a family where there are clear reasons for vaccinating should vaccinate.

NOT vaccinate.

Have been lurking on this and other vaccination threads but haven't posted until now as I have been lucky enough not to have direct experience. I have been aware of the issues though, as I have a close relative who has had some professional involvement with the MMR class action (and who chose to delay vaccinating her own son as a result).

Posie, I would really recommend that you take time to read the links and posts by Yurt and others on here who have undertaken extensive research into regressive autism as well as having direct experience. Your posts are coming across as both callous and ill-informed.

The problem is that we don't know which of our children are at risk from vaccination. The official response to this situation seems to be to sweep under the carpet the unknown minority of children who will be adversely affected in the interests of keeping vaccination rates high for the greater good. A lot of us think that a better response would be to find out which children are at risk so that these tragedies can be avoided in future.

I agree duchesse. My Mum is deaf in one ear from measles (and was very ill with measles). She has done everything she ever wanted to and lives a full and active life.

DS1 on the other hand will require 24 hour care for the rest of his life.

HIs regression followed a viral infection (which the doctors have agreed triggered his autism- it's in his diagnosis letter). I don't understand why they can accept a live virus can do this (and he wasn't particularly ill with it - he had eczema herpeticum- although it can be nasty/fatal in rare cases) but a vaccine introduced live virus can't.

I've since found out so much about autism and inflammation and the dodgy immune systems/guts of many children with autism (especially children with the sorts of symptoms ds1 had) that I couldn't even consider giving any multiple jabs to ds2 and ds3.

Sorry, posie, I thought oyu were the person to say "I do wonder who these people are who think they know better than docotrs"? In relation to there being no link between jabs and autism?

If you believe the above, then surely I do not have a clear reason for not vaccinating?

Or are you saying there is a clear link between jabs in some cases, but that you will not know until you trot along and find out wiht your child, and then IF there are any problems, people can sympathise and say "well, I understand why you wouldn't vaccinate another child (but will still think you are shirking your social responsibility)"

Are you saying noone should vaccinate and we should all keep our fingers crossed that we don't render some of our men infertile, some of our women losing babies and some of our children dead?

Well MMR seems to have increased the number of adults getting mumps - so think the male fertility thing needs to be looked at and the schedule rejigged.

In an ideal world, we would all have measles, mumps and rubella at the ages we are meant to, in toddlerhood/before the age of 5, whilst optimally fed (evidence to suggest that low vit A intake increases risk of damage from measles), and we would inherit a certain amount of background immunity from our mothers/ through breastmilk to see us through the first few months of life. Only actually catching the diseases provides any long-term protection against them.

In practise, we are now approaching our third generation of people being vaccinated against measles (I was done in 1972- one of the first I think) and background immunity must be very poor by now. Outbreaks can and do occur (and it hasn't disappeared despite extensive vaccination programmmes- I wonder why that could be?).

And Measles is not, Posie, a "horrific" illness. That is alarmist nonsense. Diptheria (still raging in Russia), cholera (still very present in many parts of the world) and malaria (kills millions of people every year) are "horrific illnesses". Measles is an erstwhile common childhood illness that can have some serious side-effects.

Posie, I think you know my position on vaccination well enough from this thread. I think there needs to be a LOT more investigation into why auto-immune type disorders are rising so sharply. I think there needs to be room for parents to make a case as to why they don't want multiplejabs, and be able to get the single jabs (they used to be around, why not allowed any more?)

Don't try to make out that I want children harmed by not vaccinating.

I just don't see how you can say in one post that you do not believe there is any case for people not vaccinating, and people who think they know more than docotrs are deluded (or words to that effect), and then follow that up (eventually) with "if there is a clear case for not vaccinating, that is ok"

you seem to be saying that we should all blindly trust what the doctors say, and that any research we do cannot be as good as the reading my GP does for eg. You have also said that collateral damage of children at risk is acceptable as long as the majority are ok., as social responsibility should be put above all other facotrs.

yes, yurt, as I said earlier my step children are about to head off to uni, and I fear for my stepson's mumps immunity. Have mentioned to him it might be a good idea to check his immunity levels, but I should think that his mother has just rubbished that as the idea came from me.