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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

to be cross my ds has measles because other parents didn't vaccinate their children

1000 replies

snickersnack · 08/04/2008 20:51

He's 11 months old, poor little thing . Fortunately he's going to be ok - he got off quite lightly, I think - but it was scary and he was really poorly for a day or so. Spent 10 hours in A&E yesterday while he had chest x-rays, blood tests, IV fluids etc. Now we're just waiting to see if his sister,who's 2, gets it - she's had one dose of MMR already so fingers crossed she's immune.

We live in an area where immunisation rates are among the lowest in the country. Now I have to go and tell all parents of the other babies he's met recently that their children might be at risk as well...

OP posts:
CoteDAzur · 10/04/2008 16:40

1/1000 for UK sounds unrealistic to me. Given that:

  • There were 740 measles cases in 1996 and in 971 in 2007. Only 1 death in 2006.
  • That was the only measles death in the past 16 years!
suey2 · 10/04/2008 16:47

i honestly think loads of research is being done. for example this

A nice review of the discussion can be seen here. I would direct people particularly to the denmark study and the comments on the original piece in the lancet.

what about the fact that many cases of autism are diagnosed at 14 months irrespective of MMR? with the mmr being given at 13 months any subsquent symptoms my just be a coincidence seehere

the genetic link is discussed here

CoteDAzur · 10/04/2008 16:48

Bitcat - I am not saying YOU should "risk it". Vaccinate your children to your heart's content.

I am only saying that your expectation that everybody should vaccinate their children with MMR is unreasonable.

ruty · 10/04/2008 16:48

well the problem is research has been prevented and Wakefield has had his reputation put through the mangle. The problem is there are parents who have witnessed their children changing overnight after the MMR into children who will never be independent again. The problem is those children don't show up in large statistical studies. the problem is the govt's own study into MMR safety, the Cochrane report, concluded that research to prove MMR was safe or unsafe was woefully inadequate. So there are a few problems, yes.

CoteDAzur · 10/04/2008 16:52

suey - All those links ask for username and password.

Does it look into why some children regress after MMR?

suey2 · 10/04/2008 16:57

wakefield quite rightly has had his reputation put through the mangle! 12 patients FFS! and he had a huge conflict of interest. the article was exceptionally irresponsible. Particularly as many people cannot read scientific articles with a critical eye. This was in no way a scientific article. Look at the denmark epidemiological study- half a million people! That's more like it

IMHO pushing for this research is like mohammed al fayed banging on about his conspiracy theories relating to the dodi/di crash. There is no basis on which to perform this research because all of the epidemiological studies have shown no link!

sarah293 · 10/04/2008 16:59

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn

suey2 · 10/04/2008 17:00

sorry cote d'azure, i checked it but i must have cookies on my laptop. I'll try and paste the review:

Autism and Measles-Mumps-Rubella (MMR) Vaccination: A Challenge for Pharmacoepidemiology
Posted 12/19/2003

David C. G. Skegg, M.B., D.Phil.

Childhood autism was first described 60 years ago,[1] but this distressing condition has attracted increasing attention recently. It is a pervasive developmental disorder defined by the presence of abnormal or impaired development appearing before the age of 3 years and by a characteristic type of abnormal functioning in the three areas of social interaction, communication, and restricted, repetitive behavior.[2, 3] The parents of autistic children usually recognize that their child has been unusual since birth or early life, but sometimes they describe a setback or regression after a period of apparently normal development.[4] Today it is common to refer to an autistic spectrum of disorders, which includes related conditions such as Asperger's syndrome.[4]

Although the causes of autism are not understood, there is strong evidence for a neurobiologic basis with an important genetic component.[5] In a British twin study, 60% of monozygotic pairs, but no dizygotic pairs, were concordant for autism; 92% of monozygotic pairs were concordant for a broader spectrum of related cognitive or social abnormalities, compared with only 10% of dizygotic pairs.[6] Epidemiologic surveys show a higher prevalence of autism in boys, and an association with intellectual disability in many cases.[7] The reported prevalence is highest in the most recent surveys, but this could reflect changes in diagnostic criteria and in recognition of the autistic spectrum (as awareness has increased and services have improved).[7, 8]

Autism became a center of controversy in 1998, when an article in The Lancet ignited concerns about vaccine safety. The authors described 12 children who had chronic enterocolitis associated with a regressive developmental disorder.[9] After a period of apparent normality, these children were said to have lost acquired skills, including communication. In nine patients the behavioral diagnosis was autism. The authors suggested that they were describing a unique disease process, which they later called autistic enterocolitis.[10] By 2001 they claimed to have found similar colonic lesions in over 150 children with autism, in whom the main gastrointestinal presentation was abdominal pain with either constipation or diarrhea.[10]

The most worrisome feature of The Lancet article was a suggestion that the autistic syndrome was precipitated by measles-mumps-rubella (MMR) vaccination.[9] This conclusion was based mainly on the fact that, in eight patients, the onset of behavioral problems was linked, by either the parents or the child's physician, with MMR vaccination. For these eight children the average time from vaccination to first behavioral symptoms was reported to be 6.3 days. The article was published as an "early report" and was accompanied by a critical commentary.[11] Nevertheless, it caused great consternation among parents and some health professionals. Although the authors acknowledged in their article that they had not proved an association between MMR vaccination and the proposed syndrome,[9] there were adverse comments about the safety of the MMR vaccine at the press conference that launched the publication.[12]

Few issues in health care are as emotive as the safety of vaccines to be administered to children. Even when official bodies offer reassuring advice,[13] there is a common tendency to suspect a cover-up. The Lancet authors' observations were highlighted in the media in many countries, including the United States. The media attention was most frenetic in the United Kingdom, where an earlier controversy about the safety of pertussis vaccination interrupted a successful vaccination program and led to epidemics of whooping cough.[14]

Autism tends to appear at around the age when children receive their vaccinations. The onset is usually gradual, so it is difficult to see how parents could reliably link the start of the condition with an event such as administration of a vaccine. Several correspondents pointed out that the uncontrolled series of clinical cases discussed in The Lancet article had not established a temporal association with MMR vaccination, let alone a causal relationship.[15]

In a subsequent letter to The Lancet, the lead author marshaled different evidence in support of his hypothesis. He presented a graph showing trends in recorded autism in California and London, England, and concluded that in both places a marked rise had occurred in the years after MMR vaccination was introduced.[16] The letter was actually a response to a detailed analysis of trends in autism in relation to MMR vaccination in London; the authors concluded that an apparent increase in the incidence of autism in successive birth cohorts could not be related to the introduction of MMR vaccination or to vaccine coverage.[17] Subsequently data from the General Practice Research Database (GPRD) were used to address the same question for children from the United Kingdom.[18] The researchers found that the incidence of autism among boys (as recorded by family physicians) had increased rapidly during years when the prevalence of MMR vaccination had been virtually constant. In another study, the striking increase in the caseload of children with autism in successive birth cohorts in California could not be explained by trends in MMR vaccination.[19]

Although these studies provided strong evidence against the notion that the increasing rates of autism were due to MMR vaccination, they did not exclude the possibility that MMR vaccination could cause autism. This hypothesis was tested directly in a study from Denmark. Researchers used that country's remarkable record keeping to link vaccination records with records of autism. The retrospective cohort study examined data from more than one-half million children born in Denmark from January 1991-December 1998.[20] Using the unique identification number assigned to each infant, they linked records of MMR vaccination status (from the National Board of Health) with records of autism (from the Danish Psychiatric Central Register, which contains information on all diagnoses in outpatient clinics as well as psychiatric hospitals). Information about potential confounding factors was obtained from three other registers. The adjusted relative risk of autism among children who had received the MMR vaccine was 0.92 (95% confidence interval 0.68-1.24). There was also no increase in the risk of other autistic-spectrum disorders. This study was highlighted in a recent systematic review, which concluded that no evidence of an association exists between MMR vaccination and autism.[21]

The feasibility of using record linkage for pharmacoepidemiologic studies in the British National Health Service was also recognized many years ago.[22] This potential has been realized through the development of computerized databases such as the GPRD.[23] In addition to the investigation described earlier,[18] the Boston Collaborative Drug Surveillance Program has used the GPRD in other studies conducted in response to The Lancet article's claims. In a nested case-control study, results showed no evidence that children with autism were more likely than other children to have defined gastrointestinal disorders before their diagnosis of autism.[24]

In this issue of Pharmacotherapy, Drs. Jick and Kaye complete additional parts of the jigsaw puzzle. As well as providing a new case-control evaluation, they show that the marked increase in the incidence rate of recorded autism among boys in British general practices from 1992-2000 was balanced closely by a decline in the rate of certain developmental disorders without a diagnosis of autism.[25] This strongly suggests that the apparent increase in the rate of autism is due primarily to changes in diagnostic practices and ascertainment. A new study from California points to the same conclusion.[26]

Five years after the controversial report in The Lancet,[9] parents and health professionals can have considerable confidence in the safety of the MMR vaccine. If vaccination did occasionally cause an unusual variant of autism, this occurrence would have to be so rare as to escape detection in well-designed epidemiologic studies. Moreover, the recent "epidemic" of diagnosed autism cannot be attributed to the MMR vaccine. Given that the controversial hypothesis proved to be an expensive false alarm, should the paper have been published at all? Although one can only condemn the media frenzy and excessive claims that stemmed from the publication, this question has to be answered in the affirmative.

The reason for this conclusion is that many adverse effects of drugs and vaccines are first recognized by astute clinicians. The process of discovery was analyzed for 18 important adverse reactions that were identified in the two decades after the thalidomide disaster.[27] In 13 of the 18 situations, the first alerts came from anecdotal reports, including single case reports in four instances. Physicians often report their suspicions in letters to medical journals, but national registries also are set up to receive reports of adverse reactions.[28, 29] Once an adverse effect is suspected, epidemiologic studies generally are required to confirm (or refute) the hypothesis, to estimate the magnitude of risk, and to identify any other factors that modify the effect.

If suspicions are not reported promptly, there may be an unacceptable delay in discovering hazards. Hence it was appropriate for the controversial hypothesis to be published. Unfortunately, its reporting in a full article in The Lancet, even though this was designated as an "early report," gave the impression that the hypothesis was based on more than a small series of anecdotal cases and the "hunches" of a few parents and physicians. Moreover, some propo-nents of the hypothesis have been reluctant to accept the reassuring findings of subsequent epidemiologic research, preferring to fuel the controversy through various channels including the news media.

The saga about MMR vaccination and autism illustrates the challenge to pharmacoepidemiologists to be able to investigate suspicions about the safety of drugs or vaccines in a timely and effective manner. There can be no doubt that studies using databases such as the GPRD, as exemplified in the article in this issue of Pharmacotherapy,[25] have a vital role to play in this task.

dizietsma · 10/04/2008 17:00

Adding my tiny voice to the cacophony-

YABU

I had measles and rubella. Everyone I knew had these diseases as a child, all of them survived with absolutely no ill effects. My tests for immunity to rubella whislt pregnant revealed I had a robust immunity, 23 years later.

I'm so in love with my DD's bubbly, exhuberant personality I would be utterly devastated to lose it to autism. I would be equally devastated for her to suffer long-term disabilities due to measles, but feel the risks of catching severe, disabling measles are now HUGELY overstated.

I think this hysteria is mostly because it is now quite a rare illness compared to the not so distant 80s that I grew up in. I think that people have forgotten that measles was generally considered an inconvenience, not the disabling menace it is now painted as being.

The eradication of smallpox and polio are not as cut and dried as being simply due to the vaccinnes.

The scientific community is our best source of information, but they can still be flat wrong; I say this as a scientist's daughter and an enthusiastic science student. I now feel that I cannot trust any studies into MMR. The scientific community is not the source of all objective truth. They've now closed ranks against any serious investigation into side-effects of MMR. To publish anything critical at this point would be career suicide for any researchers.

Immunised kids still get these diseases, it's not foolproof.

If "herd immunity" is truly the NHS's goal then they'll offer all parents either form of vaccine, not try and co-erce parents with serious concerns about the health of their children being damaged.

It is now clear that there is a sizable proportion of parents out there who are very reluctant to immunise using MMR, no amount of guilt-tripping and public awareness campaigns are going to change the minds of parents who believe they are protecting their kids, end of story. The harder they push, the more we will resist. It's like that when it comes to protecting your kids, right?

ruty · 10/04/2008 17:01

We need yurt at this point to answer your accusations suey. I don't think you've read the thread, as it has been said many times that the small subset of children who may be vulnerable to MMR do not show up easily on large scales epidemological studies. We are talking about MMR possibly causing about 7% of all autism cases. Wakefield did the research on that small number of children after parents who had been abandoned by anyone else asked him for help. and the 'conflict of interest' was not an alternative vaccine for MMR, it was a treatment for gut problems linked with autism. Anyway, bit weary now of all the misinformation so will bow out.

mrsshackleton · 10/04/2008 17:09

Riven we're not talking about anything or anyone being terminated. Please! "Shattered" was the words used by some of the parents to me, if that's how they choose to describe their lives that's up to them. But how can anyone deny that some families have not suffered hugely both physically and emotionally as a result of their dcs catching measles. Of course they love their children and don't want to "terminate" them but they would do anything to turn back the clock

BITCAT · 10/04/2008 17:20

mrsshackleton well said! I'd love to turn clock back and have my sister back. And if those parents could have done anything to prevent this happening to their children they would have done so! And my mother never recovered from the death of my sister.

mrsshackleton · 10/04/2008 17:24

Bitcat. I am so, so, so sorry about your sister.
I take it you wouldn't think "shattered" was an exaggeration to describe how your family felt (and still must feel)

Deux · 10/04/2008 17:34

My parents were left "shattered" too.

When their child was left severely and irreversibly brain damaged.

By a vaccine.

Vaccines are not 100% safe from complications and neither are the diseases. Which one do you go with? The one you feel more comfortable with.

ruty · 10/04/2008 17:35

terribly sorry about your sister BitCat
My mum lost her sister to polio, before she was born. The polio vaccine has also saved many lives, but the OPV form has also caused some cases of paralytic polio. the IPV is a much safer form, but it took many, many years to get it out there, it has only just recently come into the NHS routine. I hope one day there will be a safer version of MMR, on the NHS, too.

stuffitllama · 10/04/2008 17:38

Hello Suey I think you may be a troll. Please tell me if I'm wrong.

mrsshackleton · 10/04/2008 17:41

Deux I'm sorry to hear that
What vaccine are you talking about?

stuffitllama · 10/04/2008 17:42

You are a troll! I'm convinced. Who do you work for?

Kathyis6incheshigh · 10/04/2008 17:46

no, Suey2 is a regular (more than 500 posts if you search her name)

stuffitllama · 10/04/2008 17:49

i did search.. found nothing ..that's me told

Deux · 10/04/2008 17:52

Whooping cough. And still caught the disease, to add insult to injury.

My DS is unvaccinated as a consequence and thankfully with our GP's support.

suey2 · 10/04/2008 18:35

i am not a troll, but thankyou for letting me know that you think i am being particularly provocative or irrelevant. If you feel what i next say is irrelevant, i will bow out gracefully.

I have read a significant portion of the thread, though not all. The very sad stories of reactions to MMR are, IMHO not evidence to MMR being a cause, but maybe MMR as a trigger. There is a difference. Saying MMR is the cause is like saying a fall is the cause of bone cancer when the cancer only shows up after the fall and subsequent break. It would have manifested at some point, the minor trauma associated with the MMR being a trigger not unlike a fall or minor respiratory infection could also be.

If there really was a risk of autism from MMR, I believe that an epidemiological study involving half a million people would have shown it.

I take the occam's razor approach to all this.

Pitchounette · 10/04/2008 18:46

Message withdrawn

Doobydoo · 10/04/2008 18:51

It is a difficult choice for parents.Whether or not to let their children have the MMR.It is,obviously an extremly emotive topic for people.Parents choose to have/or not to have the MMR for their children for many reasons.
Having the MMR does not mean the child will not contract measles,mumps etc.I can understand how upset you must be though.

stuffitllama · 10/04/2008 18:56

No Suey -- not irrelevant or provocative. Not at all.

I think you're wrong, but don't think you're irrelevant. So sorry for thinking you're a troll.

The epidemiological studies don't hold a lot of water really. Most of them can be pulled to pieces, including the Danish studies, the Japanese study, the study that shows the autism epidemic started before MMR. In addition, courts in America have dismissed the use of epidemiological studies as proof or otherwise of triggered reaction in individual cases.

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