To think LA pre-school nurseries aren't better?

[AleenaM]

Looking to move my child from a private nursery to a local authority pre-school nursery to get more structure and make some friends before school start next year.

However upon visiting it's a huge open area with 90-100 children all doing 'free flow' play and staff being engaged with them to various degrees.

Any friends whose children moved from a private nursery to a council run one say ' wish we would've done it sooner', 'the difference is night and day' etc. What is this based on, how can better care and learning be provided in an open space with 100 children. Although the staff are very well trained and qualified the place seemed like a giant softplay for lack of a better comparison.

Child's current nursery has a group of 16 to max 20ish children at any one time with access to planned activities or free play, but due to the small numbers they are all likely to take part in the same activity and the 2 or 3 staff would remain with the same children all day. We get photos almost daily and I would get an update of what child has done that day.

How to preschool staff manage to meaningfully engage or from any bonds with children when they could be dealing with any of the 90 children throughout the day? How would they know what my child has done or be able to give me an update if all children move between all areas and 'stations'? They've said they don't post photos daily but use journals (hand written).

My reasoning to move would be so that child meets children going to the same school next year, so for this reason I am unlikely to consider another LA nursery with smaller numbers.

Depends on the setting. My child’s school nursery only takes a max of 26 children.

You're talking about one nursery, not necessarily representative of LA nurseries in general. My children's nursery school had forty children at any one time, divided into groups of 10. Each group had a teacher or teaching assistant.

That does sound like any nursery I've ever seen...

DD had 18 children in hers.
The current nursery class at her school has maximum of 26 children at a time.

Same. I thought was about the norm since it’s 13 per teacher? And 2 classes is pretty typical? I wouldn’t consider a place with a 100 kids all in one room, that sounds mental.

Both of mine went to the nursery attached to the primary school they moved up to and they took a max of 30 children, set up over three rooms and an outdoor space that groups moved between. The staff were amazing and my DC still talk about them with affection. I wouldn’t have sent them if it was like you describe.

Surely in any nursery or preschool setting the ration of children to staff will be the same?

My DS goes to a private nursery, he will attend the nursery attached to the school in September which only has 4 2 year olds and around 25 3 year olds.

Well this one has big waiting lists every year, is rated 5 out of 6 and very well reputed . They have groups but they're only in groups twice a day for a short time. When I visited the teachers/staff were supervising/ spending time in a place as needed, and completely unrelated to the groups.

They will have key workers and likely do circle time with their key children to get to know them. They have qualified teachers leading the classes. Some private nurseries have excellent staff but some have staff with minimal training. I work with a lot of nurseries and would highly rate a much larger percentage of LA run (including school based) nurseries compared to private ones where I am. However you might have a private nursery that is fantastic and in that case it might not be worth moving them, especially if the hours are more awkward. I would just check they will have sufficient numbers of 3-4 year old staying on.

How can there be that many children with only that ratio of adults ?

All they all mixed ages of children then too?

I can't see how a LA pre school would be better than a private fee paying with smaller numbers nursery

Are the children from the LA pre school
guaranteed to be going to the local primary ? My DC went to private nursery so only knew 1 or 2 when they went to school. They made friends quickly enough though. I wouldn't worry from that side of things OP

It’s a one form entry school so only one class.

But other nurseries in the area tend to be max 39 kids at a time. Some have some
children doing just mornings or afternoons with others doing 30 hours.

I worked in an LA run nursery similar to what you describe. It was fantastic and supported children brilliantly.

OP is this the school nursery for the school you hope for your child to attend?

I do have children in nursery (private day) and I won't personally be moving mine. I would like for them to attend the school nursery but I can't make those hours work with work. I am also very happy with my private nursery and I think they are doing all the same things.

I see a lot of nurseries in my job and no, not all LA nurseries are better by any stretch. There is a huge variety. Go with you gut. If you feel happier keeping your child where they are then do.

They will make friends when they get to school. There are usually a variety of children from other settings joining at Reception.

I moved my child from a private nursery with a 1:6 ratio with 25 kids to an LA preschool with a max 1:13 ratio for 30ish. The LA staff are more engaged and there's less staff turnover. Discipline and behaviour is a lot better with clearer expectations. There is a lot of free flow play but there is also a lot of structured time where at private nursery all of the activities were optional. Progress has been amazing and Dd adores it. Night and day is a good description of the difference!

It will depend from one nursery to another though, some private nurseries locally are better than ours was and some LA preschools are not as good as ours.

Could you give more details of specific things to address my worries that it's an overwhelming place? For example at pick up how would the teacher know what my child did that day. Do you genuinely remember all the names of all the kids and are they well known by all staff to the point you could say three things about them ? Are the children able to form friendships or attachments between each other at those numbers, especially with my child joining in possibly a year later than other children going to school next summer like her. Thank you

LA nurseries are generally better, but I personally wouldnt choose one of that style of mega classroom. 100 children and 10 adults is too chaotic.
I've worked in a similar LA nursery (not quite so bad, three free flow classes of 26) and did not like it. Quiet children get lost.
It's done that way to maximise floorspace, occupancy & income - not because it's better developmentally or educationally.

Your private nursery should do settling in/transition days at the local schools. DD's first nursery fed onto about five different primary schools and there was only about 30-50 different children attending through the week in pre school. So had she stayed on I don't think she would have been alone at school. I did move her to a LA attached to her school when we moved across the country. She started reception with 24 others from pre school. She knew all the teachers and it's a nice environment. Her younger brother is there now and will do almost two years before he starts reception.

An LA nursery will have a qualified teacher running the place. That's why it's better.

In my experience pupils coming from our local private nurseries have to unlearn all the poor phonics habits they've got into.

To clarify the staff ration I am told is 1:8 and they say there is over provision for the number of children. So staff provision in terms of numbers is good, I think staff turnover is low. Staff are trained in special needs - one weak point at our current nursery although my child doesn't have suspected needs, my other child possibly did and they dealt questionably with it.

When you say ' a lot of structured time' - what could this mean? I thought they are more structured, more routine, possibly more teaching/learning but I was shocked by 90ish kids in one place - no where again in life you're likely to be in that setting, even school is 25 kids to 1 teacher. Struggling to get how it is better but I want to hear that it is better, and be convinced.

It is attached to a school ( two schools in fact, one denominational and one non denom ) but where my child would go is another nearby school, where for example this year they had 10 school leavers.

That sounds massive. I imagine it’s attached to a large primary school- we looked at a school with a reception class set up with ninety kids all free flowing around one massive space and very quickly ruled it out.

At the school my kids go to there’s a maximum of 26 kids in nursery - and not only are they well known by the nursery staff, at this point in the year they’re known to the SLT, the KS1 staff and a bunch of the younger school kids. They’re a full part of school - they don’t go to assembly every day, but they go occasionally. They join in with sports day and appropriate school events. They have their own area and obviously it’s a play based and free flow curriculum, but I do feel it was more structured than the standalone preschool/playgroup my children attended before. Suited us very well, might not have suited some other children or families who needed childcare.

By week two of reception all the kids had settled in, made friends, staff had made the effort to get to know the ones new to the school and I don’t think it mattered which early years setting they’d come from. Go with what suits you. But don’t look at one (unusual) setting and think it’s representative of the entire sector!

Are you sure this wasn't at playtime/lunchtime?
The primary near where I live has 2 nursery classes - one morning, one afternoon and some of the children do all day. Generally there will be about 25 children in the class for one session.
But their free-flow outdoor space doubles up as the playground for the reception classes at lunchtime. 3 classes - so around 90 children.
So at one part of the day it looks like the chaos of 100 children running around outside. Which it is - but for about 30/40 minutes and then the reception children go back to their classrooms (which have their own outdoor free-flow area).

It was around 10:30am, there are no classes, there are areas such as home corner, a sand pit, crafts area etc. There is one big outdoor space. Apart from welcome time in the AM and some other thing (forgot) they are free flow all day, including between outdoor/indoor.

The kids were practicing for their leavers ceremony so I got to see them being called into groups before all going outside to dance lol. There were 12 groups and they all got called to a rug, so the groups gather on rugs.

Similar to others, our LA nursery has around 20-25 kids at a time (some only there 15 hours/week so this can vary). They do mix with reception for free-play in the afternoon - this gets them used to the reception room and teachers which helps with transition to reception. They have a qualified teacher who starts age-appropriate phonics etc. geared towards preparing them for reception, and they have weekly trips to the school library and can take home books. Personally it was a great move for us and both our kids went there before starting school.

The only downside is the hours are only 8.45-3.15pm, but wrap-around care is available.

I imagine there are good and bad LA nurseries, just as there are good and bad private nurseries, it's probably not helpful to automatically assume one is superior, it will depend where you live and what options are available.

I would feel uncomfortable with there being 100 kids (and I think my children wouldn't settle well with this) - are you sure this is right and doesn't include reception? You would need a huge amount of space and staff to accommodate this.

LA nurseries usually have fully qualified teachers so in that sense they are generally better.

My DD went to a nursery and my DS later went to preschool at the school his sister attended. For us I found preschool was SO much better than DD’s nursery had been. They did little sessions of phonics throughout the day and were massively on it when DS’s SEND needs became apparent. Conversely nursery just sort of left DD to it as she was a quiet little thing. But every setting is different!

@AleenaM 12 in a group sounds fine. So it's 12 children being taught together - not 100 or so.
They are just in a shared space.
Sounds fine to me.