To think LA pre-school nurseries aren't better?

[AleenaM]

Looking to move my child from a private nursery to a local authority pre-school nursery to get more structure and make some friends before school start next year.

However upon visiting it's a huge open area with 90-100 children all doing 'free flow' play and staff being engaged with them to various degrees.

Any friends whose children moved from a private nursery to a council run one say ' wish we would've done it sooner', 'the difference is night and day' etc. What is this based on, how can better care and learning be provided in an open space with 100 children. Although the staff are very well trained and qualified the place seemed like a giant softplay for lack of a better comparison.

Child's current nursery has a group of 16 to max 20ish children at any one time with access to planned activities or free play, but due to the small numbers they are all likely to take part in the same activity and the 2 or 3 staff would remain with the same children all day. We get photos almost daily and I would get an update of what child has done that day.

How to preschool staff manage to meaningfully engage or from any bonds with children when they could be dealing with any of the 90 children throughout the day? How would they know what my child has done or be able to give me an update if all children move between all areas and 'stations'? They've said they don't post photos daily but use journals (hand written).

My reasoning to move would be so that child meets children going to the same school next year, so for this reason I am unlikely to consider another LA nursery with smaller numbers.

How are they taught together? They don't stay together in the groups, what I saw and what was explained to me is that each child will go and do whatever they like either indoor or outdoor and their key worker won't follow the children that 'belong' to them

There are 12 groups of children, not 12 children in one group.

Even in a bigger nursery the minimum staffing would be 1 qualified teacher and 1 TA for 26 children.

The teacher will know what's happening and focusing on a small group while the others play freely. While they play they are making choices, selecting resources and putting them away, sharing and negotiating etc - all part of learning. The way the activities are set up will enable this and staff will be observing the children and assessing constantly with in depth observations from time to time.

My DD (3) is in a private nursery and the time she spends there is second to none, she loves the key workers, the other kids and its a 5* nursery so everything is just keyed in to a child's enjoyment. My health visitor brought up moving my DD to a LA preschool and I have said no, I would rather my DD had a great time where she is, then head to school to start learning in a more rigorous setting.

She does get educational books and toys from us, she has started writing her initials and can count happily, it also helps my sister who looks after her is an ex-EYP so knows how to steer games.

I am not worried about starting the school route until she starts going to school, I used to be a teacher myself so am confident staying at a private nursery isn't going to adversely affect her. Especially if at home she is getting to write and read etc

There are school Nursery Classes or state maintained Nursery Schools of around that size in my LA. Each group will have their own home base although different schools will organise this in their own way.

@AleenaM sorry 12 groups. That's about 8 per group though isn't it?
They will have a mix of free play and planned activities (aka teaching)
The planned activities the teachers will say "Listen up children......blue group you need to go to the carpet and red group to the reading corner" and they will be taught by a teacher in that small group.
They won't have free play all the time. They have to follow the EYFS curriculum.

Very true in my experience. I have been teacher in a school Nursery Class and Reception.

We used both and used them for different things.

Private nursery was for childcare, a substitute for home. Their ratio is I think something like 8 or 10:1 as they don't have any teachers. We did get handovers, the staff know the DC well.

Nursery school was as a stepping stone to primary school. There were 26 children in a class with a teacher and a TA. It ran like a school, so no handover at pickup, just a parent teacher meeting twice a year. The teachers did indeed know the children, just like primary school teachers know the children they teach.

Both were great but despite following the same curriculum they were very very different.

On the flip side…I’m a reception and nursery teacher (mixed class) and I work in a small school so tiny numbers. I have 9 nursery and 7 reception. I used to work at a private day nursery which had 60 children in the preschool room. It’s not ‘LA versus private’ it’s just each individual setting.

Well yes but in my case it it between a LA with better staff but 90 kids at once and my private nursery with a more homely feel. Not looking at a small LA nursery or at another private setting. She either stays where she is, or she moves to a LA with some children feeding into he P1 and with more structure presumably.

How did you find the nursery with 60 kids at once? Do the quieter children get lost, not get noticed or included? Were the children able to form friendships ? Ta.

I used to work in a LA nursery attached to a primary school similar to the one you describe. I have also worked in private nurseries which had separate rooms. The LA nursery was so much better than the private ones.

The nursery I worked at before was great. There being 60 children wasn’t an issue at all. Children made friends, they bonded with their peers and adults. No, in my experience children didn’t get lost or ignored. I could still tell you details about every single child that came through that preschool (and I was there 6 years - that’s nearly 400 children!) We knew the children and their families well.

Could you please go into detail of why exactly it was better? I think it's apparent I am an anxious over-worrier. Feel like my child will be overwhelmed by the huge number of children (compared to 16 atm and sometimes 35ish if the two preschool groups unite) and the free flow and will just play alone or be forgotten or just keep quiet and go with the flow slightly against her will if that makes sense. I also feel worried that different teachers will be working with her constantly rather than a few.

The children get split into groups like red, blue, green etc. They do activities in their own groups and free flow as a whole group.

I found the staff in LA nurseries more literate and intelligent as it was teacher led, with level 3 staff, whereas the private nurseries had a high turnover of thick teenagers staff. We often had to correct the learning habits from children who'd been to private nursery - phonics etc.

Purely anecdotal I know but the kids seemed happier in the bigger setting with more space to move around rather than being stuck in one room etc. They could choose to go outside as part of the free play too and play on tricycles, scooters or with dolls' prams. The outside area was bigger as it was a school playground.

Occasionally they'd also join reception children for activities but only very very occasionally.

This is the maddest time of year to view a local authority nursery. The places are always full to bursting in June and July, but most move onto school in July.

September term is generally quite quiet, January a few more join if they're have turned 3 and after Easter they hit capacity again.

The children grow in confidence and independence as the school year goes on.

Do you mean linked to the school pre-school? It just isn't a thing here, it's private nursery (daycare) or pre-school / playgroup.

The LA nurseries in my area are attached schools and have 2 x sessions of 3 hours each day with no more than 30 to a class and have a qualified teacher. I’d personally prefer that option to a setting without a qualified teacher.

Most school nursery classes arent like you have described op. Ime the advantage is they tend to hire qualified eyfs teachers with better academic qualifications who are shit hot on phonics, skills to build towards writing and early maths, it then flows seamlessly into their reception curriculum. The kids are better prepared for following rules and academic learning. Its not suited to every child but for those who are ready for it its good.

Op as DC get older the bits about bonding with specific adults are less crucial - thats more for babies and toddlers.

The DC get more comfortable around more adults from age four or so and also begin to play with peers much more independently without needing adults hovering on hand.

90 does sound huge though, are these very large urban schools?

OP I think it sounds like you are used to an environment for younger children and might not have realistic expectations of staff handover and involvement. When my kids were two they went to a little playgroup type pre school. They had a maximum of 24 kids on site at any one time, good staff ratios, and your child would spend a lot of time building relationships with their keyworker. You’d get a handover talk most days and daily photos. If a couple of kids were painting or water playing then an adult was usually next to them engaging with them, extending play etc.

My experience was that school nursery classes run more like other school classes - the kids are expected to just get on with things more. There is no handover, the teacher probably doesn’t know all that my child did that day and even if they did she’s not got time to be telling parents. You’d get told if your child had an injury, was very upset, had done something particularly great etc not a daily handover - much like reception class!

The teacher or a TA would do specific planned periods of observation of my child for their planning and progress documentation, but they weren’t constantly engaged and playing with the children in the same way as at preschool. But they were very intentional - no child was ignored or never engaged with, there was a plan for who staff were focusing on in each session and what learning they were doing. One of the big adjustments for my children was that yes, they could go and paint a picture, or play with the sand, but that there wasn’t always going to be an adult sat right there with them paying them lots of attention. It was good for them - they got more independent, they engaged more with their peers and the time they were with adults they learnt more because they were doing more structured activities with an actual teacher.

That was a class of 26. I personally wouldn’t send either of my kids to a setting with such a big group as you describe, they’d have been totally overwhelmed, but wherever they go you and they will need to adjust as they get older to a more independent and more school like environment. Daily handover is not a thing by that stage, they’re old enough to tell you about their day themselves!

Thanks, you're probably right I'm still expecting my child to be babied to that degree.

My other child is about to leave for school from this same private nursery where my youngest is now, and we still got a handover, daily photos, teachers knowing what he did all day, staff knowing children well, us knowing all the kids and all their families.

Sounds like I need to decide between offering my child another year of babying around and a move to a more formal/serious place, although the large majority of comments here agreed that 90kids is crazy.

The roll is actually 114 with 95 attending when I visited. The new intake in Aug will be 71

Private nurseries are rarely up to standard, they are mostly money making pits. It baffles me how people can't understand that basic concept.

The one I worked in had multiple carpet areas where they did circle time at the end of each session in their key groups. Whilst it's free flow, most children have a few favourite areas they gravitate towards lots and so end up spending time with other children who also like that area. The key workers would do observations on their key children and so watch out for what they were doing.

My DS went to a school nursery with 26 in the class and 3 staff members. As PP have said, we didn't get information at hand over, unless there was a problem or some big event. They used an app for photos, but it was more like once a week. I knew less of what was going on but he gradually got better at telling me and I learnt the questions to ask.

I think you are right that they offer slightly different set ups and will have pros and cons to both. At the end of the day, if you are happy with your current provision, you don't have to move him. Just because it is more popular, doesn't mean it is better for your child. There's lots to be said for consistency and only transitioning once.

Yes, but they could have say 39 children with one teacher and 2 TA

I think it depends what you're used to at a private nursery. Moving to an LA setting for our son wouldn't be worth it because our private nursery is fantastic and essentially a school type experience anyway. But I've visited others where I really wasn't impressed at all by what the children had access to in terms of facilities or activities.

Ours is set out quite unusually, but in a fantastic way. It has five "classes" each for one year (0-1, 1-2 etc) rather than the standard wider age ranges. The final one is all the children starting school the next academic year. That room has a qualified early years teacher there at all times (plus 2 assistants) and essentially runs like a more casual Reception class. Only 30 kids at a time maximum, but often fewer. I’ve never been to an LA preschool that was better, and several that were worse!