Care home fees

[Dementiadad]

I want to preface by saying I have no issues about paying care home fees...

however...

my dad has dementia and until a year or so ago was just about managing to cope at home with carers coming in three times a day for an hour a time. He lives alone as my parents are divorced.

Last autumn he started wandering and getting lost. We got a tracker and for a long time my sister and I would find him and bring him home. We kept on at social services for help as we were exhausted from it - his last care call was at 9pm and often he would go out again afterwards. No help was forthcoming, we were told just to call the police. The police were involved on numerous occasions, each time they refused to take him home as he would be alone and they deemed him at risk and so we would have to go get him/ have him dropped to our houses (where he cannot stay long term for several reasons). Social services still maintained he was capable of living at home and would not agree to him going into a home unless he agreed (which he would not as he has no clue what is going on). We were basically on our knees begging for help but got nowhere.

It has just got worse from there culminating in him getting lost in torrential rain in May, no tracker on, social media, police all looking for him - he was found bloodied and bruised from an apparent fall 6 miles from home a day later and taken to hospital.

The hospital refused to release him home, he was kept in for a week before it was decided to move him into a home. Social services found a place and he has been there 5 weeks.

He now moves into self funding as he owns his home and has some cash savings. His income is £18k a year pre tax.

I have just received the form re financial assessment. The letter attached says the home has been charging the council £650 a week. My dad will be charged £1,700 a week as a self funder.

I asked why the difference and the home basically said that is all the council will pay and they charge self funders more to make up the difference.

We looked around at other homes, pretty much all in the area charge the same and he is settled now and so I don't want to move him.

I am disgusted by this. Not only will all his savings and home be gone within 2 years or so we then have to hope that the council will let him stay there - the care home says it will all depend on whether they have any council places when the money runs out. I hope that because the council moved him here that they will agree he stays here (the risk of moving him is that they say we chose to go elsewhere).

I just don't feel it is right - that dad is not only paying for his own care but also doubly subsidising those with council places (he still pays tax)? If the fees were £1,200 a week (which is probably nearer the true cost) there is a better chance of him outliving his money.

AIBU? The council should be paying the true cost and not making the unlucky ones pick up the tab?

YANBU but this is like the third rail of politics (because it will be so expensive to fix) and no-one wants to address the significant funding issues. If dementia care was funded like all other diseases we'd all have to pay a lot more tax; most people don't want to, so they don't vote for parties which suggest higher taxes. Remember Teresa May's 'dementia tax' in 2017? Trying to go part way to fix the inequality in the social care system basically lost the tories their majority and she was lambasted.

edit to add - I am sorry to hear about your Dad OP

I firmly believe we should pay for our own care but being overcharged to fund the places of others is unfair. I am sorry you are in this position.

YANBU - I’ve heard of people negotiating on the cost so you could try that. My Dad pays a bit over £1200 and that’s in the south east. You might get a better response on the elderly parents board.

I don't think you are being unreasonable - but I do find the virulence you feel unsettling: 'I am disgusted'. Not sure with whom... yes the care system is broken. It's somewhat disappointing that most people don't seem aware of this until it effects them, not the kind of thing on anyone's manifesto.

People are living a lot longer and mainly in Ill health. Length of healthy lives hasn't changed much. They need care, care is expensive - how we pay for it from taxes, the cared fors resources, local authority resources. How much profit private care providers get to make. Are all valid political questions.

Your Dad is not paying for someone else's care he is paying a rate which enables the care home to make a profit - without that they can't run the home. I am surprised that this home takes LA and private patients. When I was looking for my aunt it was one big council care home and every other one private and about 1600 a week. But assume different areas have different provision.

The good news is they are very likely to let him stay there after the two years as you said ALL THE OTHER HOMES CHARGE the same

So he would have had to run his savings down anyway and if he lives past the 2 years then they will pay

Thanks - I am trying to negotiate but yes will have a look over on the elderly parents board.

I do think it is disgusting that those with even a little bit of money are being used to prop up a creaking care home system. It's just luck of the draw who ends up paying and who doesn't- the cost should be shared.

The council (a London borough) has no care homes, they have negotiated places in private homes - all over the country as they asked whether we would consider a home over 50 miles away.

It's the fact he could be moved elsewhere when the money runs out. If he were charged the true cost then it is more likely he would be able to stay.

Have you looked into using part of the money from the sale of his house to buy a care annuity?

I can break down the figures for my mother in dementia care using this method if that's helpful?

I would be very interested in this. I have asked for a quote but the care home finance team think we will be some way off having enough money.

Sorry, what I mean is yes he will have a care home place in 2yrs but it will depend on whether his home has any council allocation at that time. Otherwise they will shift him wherever does (unless we agree to pay the difference and we just don't have that kind of money).
it has a been a long day of forms and phone calls!

So for Mum then at 88 with dementia, high blood pressure and epilepsy we paid £138,000.

They pay 50% of her care costs inflation linked, her pension and other income covers the remaining 50% meaning her capital from the house sale is never touched.

I think we break even sometime next year.

We used a financial advisor in Cornwall who had just been through similar with his own mother.

The other thing to consider is your father would be fully funded if at a level he is a danger to himself and others and even if that isn't the case now it can change further down the line.

It’s similar with childcare, nurseries over-charge full time working parents to compensate for the free hours they now have to offer. So a mum working her butt off to try and pay nursery fees while working full time, is subsidising those who just take the free hours. The whole system is completely unfair but the companies running facilities have to generate revenues somehow to keep going.

But what is the alternative, we are keeping people alive and no one will talk about it. My mum had dementia and was in and out of hospital, each time the hospital saved her life, if you can actually call it a life.
I am actually terrified of being in the same situation but don’t know what to do.

AFAIK the council place and the private place are not actually identical. So it's not actually like for like costs and the council will block buy which also reduces their rates.
As a PP said, it's not necessarily a subsidy per se but the profit comes from private and there's no margin on council. In any case council money doesn't grow on trees so someone somewhere is subsidising council places either way

Sorry OP this is the state of council funding atm

This is the reality of care home funding.
My MIL was self funding for 4 years before she died.
It's an expensive business but it is 24 hour care, board and accommodation. It's not cheap to provide.

Thanks @stayathomegardener that's helpful.
Dad is 78 and otherwise fit and healthy (he only gave up work at 72 when the dementia symptoms started). He has in total around £220,000 in assets (depending on what his flat sells for) and income of £18k - I just don't think it will get close to covering £90k of fees per year (and the care home finance people agreed it was unlikely).

I don't quite understand- he has already been deemed at danger to himself but there is no funding for that. He got 6 weeks of NHS continuing care as he was hospitalised but that runs out soon.

this isn't the case where he is - private funders get the same as council funders. I think he gets a haircut every 8 weeks and a chiropodist visit once a month which will have to be paid out of the £30 income he will be allowed once his money runs out.

I don't think it should make a difference where the money comes from, the care should be the same.

I know it isn't cheap but £90k a year? Really? The staff are barely on above minimum wage (and are absolutely amazing).

As an example my friends Mother was attacking her husband as she didn't recognise him and wandering and getting hurt like your Father.

The hospital sectioned her for her own safety (the family had to push for this) once sectioned all care costs were covered.

It sounds like your Father could be in a similar situation given the weekly rates you've been quoted.

Mums fees in Sussex originally and now Cheshire are "only" £950 a week.

I honestly don't know what the answer is and the thought of enduring the same fate absolutely terrifies me.

I hear you on the childcare - I am not long out of that myself and agree that it is completely unsustainable.

The only way to share costs fairly is higher tax.

i'm happy to pay higher tax for better systems. But good luck getting that printed on a bus.