If you consider yourself to be left wing

[MaryMaryVeryContrary]

Do you believe there should be limits on migration (as a net figure) and benefits (as total % of GDP/cap per household), or do you think there should be no limits at all?

I’m a centrist, but whenever these topics are discussed I notice people claiming to be left wing become a bit uncomfortable, and usually make aspersions on the person talking about it before trying to move the conversation on. It’s like they know deep down we can’t just allow them to spiral but equally they’re at loathe to actually say it out loud because of how it looks.

British people don’t want to do fruit and veg picking at any wage, it’s seasonal, it’s physically hard work, there’s no career progression and our workforce is too educated. In the past local people would’ve done it amongst other farm work but they wouldn’t have been in school past 14 and they probably wouldn’t have lived to see 60.

I absolutely agree about more social housing, I’d scrap the housing associations and help to buy schemes (which only push prices up) and build more council houses owned and looked after by the council which cannot be sold off.

I am left wing. I dont think immigration should be unlimited. It needs to be tied to the needs of the country.

@SoupChicken And yet until 2004 when Eastern Europe gained entry to the EU and FOM to this country, the fields of Lincolnshire were 90%+ British pickers. Unlimited migration is only good for those who seek to make more profit. If you have an unlimited supply of workers, prepared to work for a bit less, then a bit less again to get the work, you have a recipe for disaster. That's where Britain has ended up. I think the impact on the very lowest paid has been dreadful and it gets glossed over.

Quite right. Where should the line be drawn!?

@brrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr What about jobs? Why is that different? So those already employed by a company should have to share their hours with other people who would also like to work there??

If you think that everything should be equal and there shouldn’t be boundaries, as @CoatRack points out, where do we stop/start?

Would you be happy to lower your wages to enable someone else to join your company? After all, if you don’t believe people here should be prioritised by virtue of being British or settled here (and it’s every man for themselves) then I assume you’d be happy to let other people join your work, despite meaning your standard of living will fall due to your lower wages……..

It is true.

You cannot just make up a definition of net contributor to suit your argument. Net contribution does not take into account what any children, grandchildren or great grandchildren may earn in the future. Because the money being spent on net takers is being spent now, it’s not deferred until a later date, and it’s not contingent on future generations paying it back.

Immigration is costing the country and making everyone already here poorer. There is no spin that can refute that fact.

Ah yes, the leftwing BBC

Also I'm not anti immigration partially because I like the notion of getting a state pension, also because it does good for the country otherwise

It's stupid to discuss a cap on immigration per se as there are vastly different categories of migrants.

Asylum seekers: we should comply with international law, a cap is immoral and unlawful.

Work visas and student visas: dictated by economic needs, but at the moment our focus is very short term and perhaps doesn't create incentives for UK employers to train local hires and pay them well. I doubt that a cap would be effective though.

If people think things are bad now, wait until the climate migrants start to turn up in great numbers. That's going to be the real shock for this country. Perhaps we should start planning to take over Russia. They have a lot of land and resources and their population is massively declining. The climate migrants could have their very own country and keep that nice Mr Putin in a chicken shed on a freezing, muddy farm.

Surely benefits caps just trap more children into poverty? We need to break this cycle.

I agree with @SoupChicken we need to build council houses and have a much better rental sector.

The left wing vs right wing doesn't really map very well onto these issues.

In general right wing in the U.K. is about less state intervention in life generally, although as others have pointed out this can vary across social ( the anti-"nanny state" types) and economic (we should privatise everything we can). There is also the thread of "conserving" the best bits of the U.K. from too much change.

Left wing tends to be for a bigger state and using state power to protect minority rights (eg equalities act).

It's generally accepted by both right and left that you need some kind of control over immigration, and in general they are in agreement that there are different types and some types are considered more acceptable than others.

There are people on both left and right who worry about immigration and its impact on the U.K.

It's interesting as well that a lot of the concern around immigration is about pressure on state services and housing - traditional right wing views would be more along the lines of what Nigel Farage has actually suggested which is to change the healthcare system to a social insurance model like France or Germany.

At which point you don't need to worry about the impact of immigrants on healthcare because they either pay for it or go without.

The sight of right wing politicians complaining about the impact of immigrants on something as left wing as the NHS is genuinely amusing,

British people don’t want to do fruit and veg picking at any wage, it’s seasonal, it’s physically hard work, there’s no career progression and our workforce is too educated. In the past local people would’ve done it amongst other farm work but they wouldn’t have been in school past 14 and they probably wouldn’t have lived to see 60.

I know someone who did fruit and veg picking when they were young. They're older than me but didn't leave school until 18 and went to university. They did the fruit and veg picking when they were a student in their holidays, and just after graduating.

Also as it's only seasonal, it's not people don't want to do it. They can't afford to. How do they pay the rent or other bills if it's only a seasonal wage? And why is it acceptable to have foreign workers left in that position? Seems exploitative.

One answer is working holidays I suppose? Young people get a year or two's visa. They get to travel and also have some pocket money/travel expenses. But also the jobs could be advertised to students to do in their holidays, like my friend did.

Foreign workers come and pick fruit for the same reason a lot of teachers go and work in Dubai for a bit.

The pay isn't enough for you to live locally and with the lifestyle the locals have.

But if you're young and you do it for a few years you can get a stack of cash that sets you up in your home country very nicely thank you.

(I hear Dubai is not the route to riches it used to be but you get the general idea)

I’m right wing, I do think we need a cap on benefits. And I do think immigration needs to be controlled.

Facts may not suit your prejudices but they expose them.

I don’t think there should be a “market” for salaries. I’d like wages to be standardised into bands similarly to public sector jobs so that there is no way to undercut anyone regardless of where they come from.

I’ve said before I think global open borders could reduce global inequality. And it would mean a drop in living standards in western countries. I’m happy with that.

I don’t see the need for job sharing.

Global open borders would be impossible. Everyone would naturally head towards the wealthy countries/areas then that would attract more and more then the snowball effect continues. No one would chose to live in the lower economic areas.

Much like those Albanian ‘Asylum seekers’. They weren’t fleeing from wore torn areas, they were economic migrants. It’s not to say they were wrong for wanting a better life but if the world was free to roam there would be pandemonium. Then wars would start as there are no rules and it’s every man for themselves. It would be carnage.

We haven't found a difference between them yet. We're swiftly reaching our zenith though.

Someone purchased property from somebody, who in turn purchased it from somebody else. Follow that line all the way back to the beginning - from whom did the first ever buyer buy the land upon which your private space now sits?

We’ve found huge differences, you are ignoring them.

Name 3

I feel like everyone knows this, but

All property is theft

Land in particular has almost certainly been taken by power at some point.

So I bought my house from the developers who bought the plot from a farm who bought it when it was enclosed by act of parliament so it was owned by the crown.

And the crown has been taken by power many times although not recently.

I presume that is your point?

I mean leftists can cry all they want that they want unlimited immigration but they will lose a lot in return, from the welfare state to the leftist viewpoint in general, and much, much more. So they should enjoy their dogma whilst they still can.

You could just read it back…

This thread asks whether left wing people believe there should be restrictions on migration.

I am left wing and shared that my belief is that there should be unlimited universal global migration. Global freedom of movement.

You tried to argue a line about private homes, attempting to find equivalence. You want to suggest that if I want open borders at national level I should allow anyone into my private home.

I draw a distinction between an individuals private space and global public space. I believe they are not subject to the same principles. I believe individuals have a right to sanctuary, peace, and dignity within their own home.

An individual private space is different to public space / common space.

Almost.

If someone broke into your - apparently stolen - house and set up their living space (deliberate choice of word) in your lounge; what would you do, and by what moral right would you do it?