If you consider yourself to be left wing

[MaryMaryVeryContrary]

Do you believe there should be limits on migration (as a net figure) and benefits (as total % of GDP/cap per household), or do you think there should be no limits at all?

I’m a centrist, but whenever these topics are discussed I notice people claiming to be left wing become a bit uncomfortable, and usually make aspersions on the person talking about it before trying to move the conversation on. It’s like they know deep down we can’t just allow them to spiral but equally they’re at loathe to actually say it out loud because of how it looks.

I am in my mid 40s and I did fruit picking in the summer holidays with my student friends in late 90s, it wasn’t unusual at all, piece meal rate.

But times, and farming have changed significantly since then.

A quick google shows jobs available but the contracts are May to October or November.

Also, students, for the most part, tend to have more opportunities for summer jobs ( cough, cough hello DD2, can you get your arse in gear please?).

Stuff it, just a little rant.

I have 3 DDs.

18 ( just finished A levels), 20 (just finished second year) and 22 ( just finished at a prestigious uni in Scotland). DD3 I let quit her job to focus on A levels. She could go back, I know, its in our local pub, but hasn't made any effort. DD2 has done nothing but flop around the house since she returned about 2 weeks ago ( having been picked up and driven back, including with a sack of dirty washing), and DD1 had her graduation last week and is making noises about MPhil applications (fine) but hasn't actually done one, nor has she got into getting a job.

Of course I returned from work today and the kitchen was like I'd left them at home when they were teenagers. Nothing else done. Dogs not fed. All dressed up to go out together tonight though.

Rah.

Rant over.

I was just responding to the notion of ‘in the past’ it seems to be jerking back to the Edwardian times, one side of my family were Somerset dairy farmers and that was the case but due to the industrial revolution moved to London. I just don’t think it was that long ago when students did these kind of jobs. I feast born and grew up in London but I’m referring to student holidays.

Sorry, ‘jerking’😂, I mean referring.

@Aladdinzane I was thinking the same about you actually. It's nice being able to have a calm and reasoned discussion on issues.

I'd happily keep discussing now but I'm absolutely exhausted (very long day today) and can feel myself getting to the stage of rambling and repeating myself. I don't want to post again tonight if I'm too tired to properly read and consider your posts (or other people's).

Regarding immigration - until the nhs trains and retains enough staff, we will be reliant on overseas staff.
In my team of 15 clinical staff, we have 4 British, 1 Australian, 2 Malaysian, 3 Indian 1 Greek, 1 Polish, 1 Portuguese, 1 Italian, 1 Irish.
Without immigration, my team would be desperately short staffed. Its a clinical area where training is very limited in UK, much better abroad, so we don't get many UK applicants.
To be completly anti immigration would be similar to being anti nhs at the current time!

Yes, perfect for 6th form/ uni students. I did this all throughout uni. Paid for most of my accomodation for the following academic year. As a student you get long summer holidays off. Young, lots of energy, can work hard and keen to earn money. In many countries in Europe, a large part of the workforce take 4 weeks off. A lot of the less skilled jobs are filled by summer workers. Gives you money, work experience and life experience.

@Shakespeareandi farming has changed though. Summer contracts run May till October or November. Lots of farmers look for all year round staff ( which has caused the big population increases in places in Lincolnshire for example).

Tunnel farming, vertical farming, you name it. Kids turning up to do shifts for 6 weeks is long gone.

Well I just looked in the area I worked in and it states seasonal work starting late June- it is actually better than when my friends and I were doing it as it is not piece meal. You have to be able to lift and carry which as a student you can do. It wouldn’t be suitable for a sixth former like my DS but students do get long holidays. The obvious, major problem though is in some locations you need a car. The one we worked at was accessible via bus.

There are 12 million people claiming a pension and rising. There are 9 million people who are economically inactive between 16 and 64 years. 1.2 million people are unemployed and not born in the UK.

Yes, there's a failing infrastructure, that's because we don't build houses, we're not even allowing qualified drs onto training schemes now. We haven't invested in these things and continue to dismantle things for ideological reasons. I'm not sure I believe the posters who moan about the culture of their street changing etc. Most of this racist rhetoric comes from predominantly white areas like Clacton. London has seen a lot of immigration, my children's school has 60% of the children from Asian minorities and 30% Jewish (2nd or 3rd generation migrants). Believe it or not, we live in harmony. Our local brilliant hospital is 40% manned by people from ethnic minorities.

The problem with this country is not migration. It's unequal distribution of wealth and ideological reduction of the state since Thatcher.

London hasn’t always been a place of harmony though, I was born and grew up there, loads of racism in the 90s, early 00s. I wonder where they went.

@Goldenbear

"The problem with this country is not migration. It's unequal distribution of wealth and ideological reduction of the state since Thatcher."

This is very accurate.

Much of the posturing of the right has been so that their backers get to keep an ever larger slice of the pie, whilst pandering to the prejudices of the hysterical tabloid reading masses.

@Aladdinzane no one said the only problem with this country was mass immigration but the constant churn affects particularly poorer people - people want a sense of community and belonging and if their community is constantly changing they don't get this - part of the reason for poor mental health is this and family breakdown leading to loneliness and alienation. Mass immigration and no support for family doesn't affect people at the top they are just money grabbing greedy people who reap the rewards while putting the costs on the poorest.

@Northernnature

The vast majority of the poorer people in the country live in areas that have relatively low immigration. The most deprived regions are East Yorkshire, Durham and Tees Valley, West Wales and the Valleys and the West Midlands.

Of those the West Midlands has the most number of people who are Foreign born, but its still only the national average ( and likely to be because of older migrants who have been here a long time). The others have immigration levels at 5% or less.

@Aladdinzane there are vast areas of the country where poorer people have left see East end of London. And you are just counting immigration as people who have just arrived in the country recently or are foreign born but areas like Rotherham and mill towns have massively been affected by past immigration - you should go there as suspect you never go out of the Home Counties.

@Northernnature

"Rotherham and mill towns have massively been affected by past immigration - you should go there as suspect you never go out of the Home Counties."

Ah so its brown people is it?

The ones we invited over to fill all the job vacancies after the war and their descendants?

Historic immigration is not counted no.

What are the "massive effects"?

@Aladdinzane - my niece plans her summer the year before like you would plan an exotic holiday. So it is significant work experience this summer which will hopefully lead to a graduate recruitment scheme offer, helping at youth orchestras, tennis camp and tutoring as she always does and teaching English in Bali via some scheme and a friend of a friend. Academic Tutoring pays well, she is diploma level on 2 instruments/voice etc etc She is aiming for top law firms. She earns well already and keeps a spreadsheet to stay under the threshold so she won’t be taxed/has to do the form.

She has always been a super high achiever/busy body and is an amazing teacher. Kids adore her. But she is aiming for top law firms. My fear is she will go there, they will take their pound of flesh and she can’t say no to anything ever!
We all have your worries about our own kids and kids in our wider family and it’s hard to get the balance right. Niece could have also been an orchestral player and gone to conservatoire or she could become an academic. Most of her friends at Oxford are like her, super high achievers who could do various things.

The magic circle law firm is going to pay her 150k per year once she finishes her training! So how can we hope that kids like her go into teaching or academics or music/arts, I know some still do, but it is increasingly difficult for them to choose that path given cost of living and student debt!
From Reception my niece has been helping others at school and been the teacher’s pet. It’s in her DNA to help out and go all out. Some people are just like this, but I don’t think her hard work and dedication should pay for others to put up their feet and take a more relaxed attitude to life (looking at my own DS1, who is very talenyed but can be lazy). It’s got to be a balance.

@Aladdinzane if you haven't been following what had been happening in Rotherham etc. I really can't help you. And I won't dignify your brown people comment with a reply. Why don't you get out of your bubble and travel abit more?

" if you haven't been following what had been happening in Rotherham"

:)

I knew where you were going.

Why don't you just go the full Tommy Robinson on us?

Again @Aladdinzane shouting tommy robinson, brown skin, hate blah blah blah isn't an intelligent argument. The level of debate is so low in this country that's why we get the politicians we deserve.

Citing the grooming gangs issue in Rotherham as an impact of immigration is not good debate. So don't pretend you have any moral high ground

Yes I do I listen to people and try and understand where they're coming from even if I disagree or think they're talking crap (often). I don't just shout insults with no evidence. You should try looking at YouTube videos of the eighties and nineties - politicians of all parties engaged with each others arguments and didn't assume they were coming from a bad place unlike now. And the media is the same. This has led to the public also indulging in ad hominem insults like you and gets us nowhere.

" I listen to people and try and understand where they're coming from even if I disagre"

I've listened to people, I've pointed out that in a lot of cases the issues they are blaming on immigraton are not impacted as much as they claim.

I've cited studies and given evidence for this.

Then you come back and are giving the Rotherham grooming gangs as a negative impact of immigration for Rotherham.

It's not any kind of moral high ground.

Just interested in your view. Where I am the NHS treatment I have had is excellent from hospital and GPs. I was interested in the figures when a person turned up late prior to me and pushed my appointment back 30 minutes. Obviously this has a knock on effect.

Millions of people miss appointments (not cancel) what is your opinion on fines if this is a recurrent issue? I think it's awful that some people have to wait a long time for life saving treatments and others just don't turn up.

I get letters and texts reminders for appointments. Is it that difficult for them to cancel?

Surely if this was better managed then the waiting lists would be shorter?

In the past few years I have had a cancer scare (seen in 10 days), in patient and outpatient treatment and been in contact regularly with the GP. I appreciate that NHS treatment varies across the country and I'm fortunate. As for who treats me I'm all for legal immigration. I do think that something significant needs to be done to stop illegal immigration and gangs taking advantage of the vulnerable. I appreciate it's not an easy thing to do and hope that whoever is in power they can help. It's awful for those that die crossing boarders and the abuse that happens.