Child s education

[the7Vabo]

I made a couple of good mum friends when my kids were tiny.

The best secondary school in the town is the religion both of their husbands are and they had their children baptised as. One of the families vaguely practice, the other family doesn’t at all. It’s very unlikely my kids will get in. It’s possible they may not get a place locally at all and we”ll have no choice the way the system locally works.

Our kids are quite young and they regularly speak about how delighted they are about the school.

I struggle to deal with this. Our boys have all grown up together and I struggle not to feel my son is dismissed as lesser because he is the wrong religion.

I know many will reply schools aren’t everything and not the only input into success. But to me it’s not about success it’s about him having a nice secondary experience. The best school has way better facilities etc.

Im thinking of saving to send kids private even though I don’t think that would necessarily be the best for them as I don’t want to put them in a school where I’m they’ll feel poor!

Meantime I struggle to bite my tongue when my friend again talks about how great the school is. A state funded school that we both pay taxes for and my child doesn’t have the same access to. I can’t understand how people are happy to be so gleeful about benefitting from discrimination.

You can apply to a religious school, even when you are not of that faith. The acceptance criteria is slightly different to a non faith school. I work at a faith school and we have a bout a 55/35 split.

The sadness you feel is the same sadness lots of parents feel because they are unable to afford a house in an area with a good school and therefore their only option for their child is to go a school that isn't as good.

I think the problem here is really your attitude towards the situation, you can't change the rest and it is most definitely not your friend's fault. I understand you want the best for your children but what do you want? Your friends to choose a different school to make you feel better? I hope your attitude about this is not shown to your children as that is what will ruin their secondary school experience.

I live in a town with good but oversubscribed state schools, and I agree with pp that lots of people are in your situation - maybe not because of religion, but because their child lives slightly further away or doesn't have a sibling or whichever criteria is relevant.

I do think it's insensitive of your friends to go on and on about it. They sound a bit braggy.

As your child is quite young you have time to think about this. Could you consider moving to the catchment area of another good school?

The rules are different where I live.

No of course is not my friend’s fault. But one of them brings this up almost every time we met about how the school is so great and it’s really getting me down to the point where I don’t met up with her as much as it’s starting to feel like gloating.

If I was the one benefiting from what I’d religious discrimination I’d like to think I wouldn’t bring it up constantly with the person who isn’t.

Its hard to explain the particular dynamic without identifying where I live.

It has been lovely having those friends as the kids have been together since they were babies.

All of us mums were brought up on the same religion, the other two married men brought up in another religion and baptised their kids that which everyone does for schools.

I know many parents will experience sadness and disappointment when it comes to schools. And to the pp point my only “attitude” is wanting a good education for my children. I would never discuss any of this with them.

I feel I need to take a bit of a step back from one of mums in particular which I’m a bit sad about as our kids get on well. But I can’t take much more of the talk about the school. If I was to ever talk positively about another
school it’s immediately dismissed.

This sounds OTT if your kids are quite young and not going any time soon. We live in a complicated area for schools where the so-called 'best' schools are a mix of grammars, faith schools and schools that offer places on banding and other criteria (sport, drama, music). DD is year 3 and there is only occasional chat about schools. I would step back if the friendship is making you feel worse.

As someone who has had two children go through primary, secondary and sixth form one thing you need to understand is that not all learning takes place within a school so as a parent you can absolutely make a massive difference to your child's academic success by understanding what is important. So whilst schools seem important a child can be successful with the right kind of attitude to school and education.

The other thing to bear in mind is that schools can and do change, just because it is a faith school does not mean they won't end up with a cohort of children who can tank its reputation and academic success. The school near to us had this happen and for the first year ever didn't have their school homepage with their GCSE result success emblazoned across it.

If it was me I would double check the criteria of the religious schools - even though your friends may have baptised their children, I think a lot of the time admissions are based on references from the priest / vicar, and I think in some faith schools things like if you help out at church services and attend extremely regularly then these get you extra ‘points’.

If the schools are that good they are undoubtedly going to be oversubscribed, so your friends’ children may not actually get places, depending on the oversubscription criteria, and how many other children’s families tick all the boxes to a greater extent than them. There is a catholic secondary school locally, and I have known a number of families who assumed their dc would get places, but who didn’t, as it was rated outstanding, and massively over subscribed.

I think if you look into this, it will make you feel a bit better (as your dc and their friends may well end up going to the same (non-faith based) school). You should not worry about other dc (and their parents) - your dc is likely to find new friends at secondary anyway, and can always keep in touch with existing friends outside of school. You should think about a good school for them - and if it is important to you, you can always (if you have time / resources) move into the catchment of a school that you like.

And if it is a long while until your dc are at secondary, it is possible that the ratings of local schools will change - this has happened locally… faith based school (formerly outstanding) has gone down to requires improvement, and formerly ‘failing’ school, now good (and desirable). Anyway - ofsted ratings aren’t everything. I have chosen a ‘good’ rated secondary over an ‘outstanding’ rated secondary for one of my dc because it is a much better fit for my child, and is much better than the outstanding one in a lot of ways.

I have a real issue with any school recieving state taxes having religious access criteria. I am in Ireland it is only beginning to have multidenominational options.

We got very lucky and a year before my eldest needed secondary a Multi D secondary opened, after a decade of campaigning. Perhaps there is a process to campaign for a change?

If your dc are young and she's crowing about being able to go to the good secondary every time you meet she's insensitive and I'd distance myself.

It's either that or you grit your teeth and be friends with someone who is not very nice and makes you feel bad.

You could tell her to stop going on about it as it's insensitive as you have less chance of getting in through accident of birth.

To be honest I don't think you'd necessarily like your dc to go to faith school. I'm Catholic and have a visceral reaction to non-faith schools, it's lacking for me. I reckon you might have the same reaction to your dc being schooled in a faith you don't believe in.

I appreciate its frustrating that these people are playing the system in your eyes. Meanwhile there may be people in these children's families who are happy the children are being raised culturally in that faith. If you aren't of the faith yourself it can be hard to understand the community or the way in which a faith education is an important part of a lifelong association. You don't need that for your dc. Anything could happen in the years before secondary. Make your decisions on their education based on what's right for you and your family and not what anyone else is doing.

What would definitely be religious discrimination would be if the state actually stole a school which was founded by and initially funded by a church for the benefit of childen of that religion in order to force it to be a secular school.

Religious organisations started founding and funding schools centuries before the state decided to provide universal education. In communities where schools had already been created by religious communities the state agreed to take over the staff payroll in enchange for agreement that any excess places beyond the requirements of families of that religion in the area would go to other families. The religious school owners agreed to maintain ownership of the buildings and usually financial responsibility for upkeep on the understanding that the families for whom the school was founded would still get priority.

But entry criteria are not actually allowed to be faith based, only action based. You have to be able to qualify by going through the motions whether or not you believe. There will be plenty of children at the religious school whose parents have no faith at all but who took the necessary actions to qualify.

Calling this religious discrimination is deliberately misinterpreting and ignoring these facts. You did in fact have several year's notice that you would eventually be the parents of a school-age child. You had freedom to choose where to settle. You chose an area where the school had entry criteria which you then chose not to take steps to qualify for. These were all your free-will choices.

You can challenge your friend without directly having a go at her. Tell her it's unfair it works this way in a modern society and you're worried about where your son will go.

I agree it is unfair. Where we are, the local faith based schools have adjusted the admission criteria to effectively exclude looked after and previously looked after children by putting them way behind children of their faith - excluding the most vulnerable doesn’t seem consistent with the faith!

The ones that don’t really practice may find it hard to get in. Lots of faith schools require a letter from the priest confirming regular attendance! Have a look at the detailed admission criteria on the schoool’s website.

Also check the admissions for the last year on the LA website. It may be that places were allocated to those in the last category of admission if it wasn’t over subscribed with the religious.

Anyway, if it is as much about your friends as about your own unresolved school situation, just tell your friends to stop it, before losing friendships or spending thousands on private in a race to out-school them. “Yes, lucky for you! But I am finding the prospect of secondary transfer quite daunting so I’m the wrong audience”.

Kids need a ‘good enough’ school to get them through the curriculum. Most thrive without being in ‘the best’ school that all the parents vye for.

I would distance myself from these mums as it is making you feel worse. Don't bother challenging them about it, you can't change the system and they are gleeful of the advantages their dc will have.

You need to draw a line under it and establish a plan to get your dc the best education within the limits of the system. I don't think saving for private is the way to go as it sounds like it would be a financial struggle and fees will be going up. Grammar is an option but you'd likely have to move and it would be a gamble as some dc don't get in even with lots of tutoring. What we did was target one of the top comps in the country, and moved into the same street to ensure we could definitely get in under distance criteria. We could only afford the inflated house prices by renting a small flat from Year 5 (we had to sell our old home first). It was a squeeze but we bought a new house again a couple of miles away, after dc1 had started at the school, so we are back in a family size home now, and dc2 will still be able to get in under sibling criteria. There must be a very good comp somewhere in your region that you could move near? What year are your dc in now?

It's OK to outgrow friendships. Baby friends dynamics usually change and drift as there's the dynamics of parents and children, then the lifestyles and circimstances of the parents change over the years.

You either need to assert yourself around these tedious conversations and totally change the subject or decide if the friendship is not compatible.

Kindly, you care too much about comparing different circumstances and let their choices affect your mood too much, but also they sound like tedious bores to be fixated on this for so many years in advance.
If private school works better for you, then do what's right for your circumstances, and for your sanity, stop comparing.

Your son can do well whatever school he goes to. And he'll make new friends. My dc had friends from school, friends of friends, extra curricular etc
Seems really silly not to stay friends with the other mums over this.

If you are in England, state funded religious schools have to take a proportionate amount of pupils from outside the religious criteria. Typically it's 20% minimum.

There will be alternative schools locally, you just might not like it

It’s really weird that she brings up secondary schools every single time you meet up if your kids are still small and it’s years off. What a bore! Can’t you just politely shut it down? Like point out it’s years away and that you probably can’t consider that one anyway since you’re not x religion, and then swiftly change the subject.

Also if it’s years off things do change- declining birth rates may mean you get into that school, a change of head may mean you don’t rate it anymore, a school you don’t like now may be amazing by then, the kids might not get on by Y6 and you want them to go to separate secondaries… etc…

fairadmissions.org.uk/

State school selection by faith is unfair and needs to go.

A hill I'm prepared to die on!

"If you are in England, state funded religious schools have to take a proportionate amount of pupils from outside the religious criteria. Typically it's 20% minimum."

Only 20% of Brits are regular church goers.

If schools had to take a proportionate number of pupils from outside the religious criteria it would be 80%, not 20%.

Are your children year 6? Is the move imminent?

Have you done the open evenings at the other schools? Surely you would have to be given a place at a local school - what are the catchment rules in your area?

I don't understand how this works. We have a Catholic primary and secondary school. Their admissions criteria is essentially 1) Catholic children (there is a lot if detail about frequency of attendance at church, age of baptism, siblings etc to differentiate) 2) other faiths 3) anyone else. Generally their places all go to people in the first category. There is no provision for 20% who aren't Catholic. Is it to do with how they are funded? In contrast the CofE primary offers 50% of spaces on distance.

Are you sure the faith school is genuinely better? Ie have you been to open days, looked at websites, compared them on specific criteria etc? There are a couple of Catholic primary and secondary schools near me and I know a few ex-pupils and current/ Future parents who think the schools are amazing. Actually they're not in my opinion and don't provide the education I would want for my DC. Too focused on Catholicism and the requirements of the religion (regular prayer, communion etc) at the expense of a true breadth of knowledge of the 'outside world'. The local Catholics I know in general seem a bit like 'this is the local Catholic primary. DC will then go to the catholic secondary round the corner '. If they want to stick with a religious education, the path is predetermined and they have to believe and speak as if it's actively a good place for their child. Doesn't mean it is objectively an excellent school, just the best of their very limited (self imposed) options.

Op if your talking about Scotland you absolutely can apply to RC schools and lots of Muslims prefer them.

They will take Catholics first but they can't refuse other people if they aren't full.

@DexaVooveQhodu explains the situation very clearly