Child s education

[the7Vabo]

I made a couple of good mum friends when my kids were tiny.

The best secondary school in the town is the religion both of their husbands are and they had their children baptised as. One of the families vaguely practice, the other family doesn’t at all. It’s very unlikely my kids will get in. It’s possible they may not get a place locally at all and we”ll have no choice the way the system locally works.

Our kids are quite young and they regularly speak about how delighted they are about the school.

I struggle to deal with this. Our boys have all grown up together and I struggle not to feel my son is dismissed as lesser because he is the wrong religion.

I know many will reply schools aren’t everything and not the only input into success. But to me it’s not about success it’s about him having a nice secondary experience. The best school has way better facilities etc.

Im thinking of saving to send kids private even though I don’t think that would necessarily be the best for them as I don’t want to put them in a school where I’m they’ll feel poor!

Meantime I struggle to bite my tongue when my friend again talks about how great the school is. A state funded school that we both pay taxes for and my child doesn’t have the same access to. I can’t understand how people are happy to be so gleeful about benefitting from discrimination.

“the Catholic curriculum drives them to have good results” - where is your evidence for this? What is so different about the curriculum that would lead to different results? Is the curriculum not the same as any other non-academy state school?

You’re still focusing entirely on Catholic schools. My local schools are CofE and the parents who suddenly start baptizing their kids and going to church are not religious.

I also disagree that the admission criteria isn’t that complicated. My local CofE secondary has an 11 page admission policy that is insanely complicated. I’ve spoken to so many parents who have completely misunderstood the process. Some think their is an entry exam, whereas it’s actually a banding exam. Some think Catholic practice is treated the same as Anglican practice. Some think you have to be baptised and to have taken holy communion. Some don’t realise there is also a distance criteria. It’s designed to allow them to weed out the families that they don’t want.

@NicoleSkidman

where is your evidence for this?

it is simple. Most of the Catholic schools have very good GCSE results. Better even than CoE.

What is so different about the curriculum that would lead to different results?

Cathehism, Catholic ethos, value system, service to others, stricter expected behaviour and so on.

Is the curriculum not the same as any other non-academy state school?

Actually most of catholic schools are voluntary contribution academies and many are in the process of converting into it. The curriculum is somewhat diffetent when it comes to teaching RE, ethical topics and so on.

My local schools are CofE and the parents who suddenly start baptizing their kids and going to church are not religious.

because it is similar situation as with Catholic schools. Most of those people came from CoE, their parents or grandparents were churchgoers. They may even have been baptised but not practicing until it came to the decision about schools.
You absolutely have a right to disagree and I respect the difference in our opinion but I am convinced that no firm atheist would subject a child to a faith school because it is conditining value system of a child from the early age.
My local CofE secondary has an 11 page admission policy that is insanely complicated.

in what way? I am asking out of sheer curiosity

Some think you have to be baptised and to have taken holy communion. Some don’t realise there is also a distance criteria

and... a child doesn't need to be baptised? Thay would be odd.
yes, there is a distance criterion by parishes ( catholic) or in km.
I think that many parents are not bothered to read the admission policy. Nothing complicated.

@izimbra

How much of that is down to teaching and ethos, and how much of it is down to the impact of religious selection on the socio-economic demographic of the school?

Look at the Catholic schools around you. Progress 8, Attainment and GCSE results, please. Then look at the same of CoE results. Catholic schools have often results nearly as good as grammar schools. And who attends those schools?

Look at the languages they take at GCSE. Many of them are Polish, Portuguese.
In addition you will find many Irish kids and other nationalities. Catholic schools are very diverse when it comes to background.
Because the Catholic schools are full of children of immigrants. Hardly an affluent socio economic demographic group.
Seriously, I know kids attending 5-6 different Catholic schools.

Our experience of the faith school system is clearly very different.

“I am convinced that no firm atheist would subject a child to a faith school because it is conditining value system of a child from the early age.”

Well, you’re speaking to an atheist who has done exactly this because where I live the CofE schools are so much better for all of the reasons I have already explained (nothing to do with the fact that the kids are religious or the curriculum is different - because neither of those things are true). All of my good friends (who are also atheists) have done exactly the same and plan to do exactly the same for secondary school to.

The CofE system is self selecting for white middle class families. It is exceptionally unfair and shouldn’t be allowed in a secular democracy. The result is an extremely diverse Neighbourhood where kids are separated by race for age 4 with the white kids going to the CofE schools and the Muslim kids going to the academies.

@NicoleSkidman

I live in South West Greater London. There is a variety of schools nearby. The closest secondary CoE schools are probably 15 miles from here in Ealing Borough. They don't have any impact on the local cohort choices because nobody here is in their catchment. I don't think there is any CoE nearby at a secondary level. There are other faith schools here: Catholic and general christian schools accepting baptised kids from any christian denominations. We have primary CoE schools and these are far more relaxed with the faith practices than Catholic schools. Atheist are unlikely to send children to the local Catholic schools because honestly, there is a lot related to religion happening there. Yes, it is different with CoE where the religious aspect is minimal.
Almost all primaries here are 👌 excellent. Good or Outstanding so it is no problem. The very best results here among the secondary state schools have the schools that have no faith denomination. Grammar and few comprehensive. The housing prices in the catchment for the comprehensives are what stops children. Not faith schools which are full of foregin kids from the countries where faith matters.
So it is not really faith segregation down here but affordability of housing. Muslims can equally send child to the best comprehensive here as long as they live in expensive catchment.

I am somewhat surprised that you believe in stopping religious segregation in schools but you decided to send your child to CoE school.

I’m opposed to segregating children on the grounds of religion for obvious reasons. I’m also opposed to segregating children based on the colour of their skin or their parents bank balance, or any other reason. However, we all want the best education for our kids so we do what we have to do. In my case I went to church and got the priest to sign a form, in your case you bought an expensive house in a good catchment.

in your case you bought an expensive house in a good catchment.

@NicoleSkidman

I think it is not very fair to be against religious schools but not against grammars that drive the level of sourrounding comprehensives down, and supporting property prices that are really dictating the school for a child.
Either we are against any segregation or leave it as it is.

You are to quick to jump into conclusions creating false assumption Not everybody in this borough has a family or moved because of kids. Actually, a lack of mobility in this very sought after borough is the problem for the local estate agencies. I have been living here for the last 28 years and I moved because I got a job here. My 11 years old boy was not even in plans neither I have met his dad when I moved to this borough and later this house. And the house I live in was 4 times cheaper than it is now when I bought it.

What makes you think I’m not against grammar schools?

Thia country needs a single system of well funded comprehensive schools that don’t discriminate on the grounds of wealth, religion or IQ.

⬆️ This!

Similar situation with my now 17yr old. Went to a supposedly 'lesser' secondary but came out with top GCSEs & is predicted top A Level grades. It's not ALL about the school.

There will not be a single system even if grammars and faith school were scrapped. The segregation would continue driven by ££ you have as it is now- private schools and property prices around the well performing schools. Just as it is now ..

Of course it is not always about the school. However, many kids are driven by the values of their peers and are not thinking independently. They perform better in ambitious and focused on education cohort than at school with poor result.