To think that this really can't be true about young people's thoughts about Israel?

[Another2Cats]

So, I just read an article where they say they have done a poll of young people and, of those under 25, 54% said that they agree with the statement "the state of Israel should not exist". Just 21% disagreed.

Did the polling company manage to just randomly pick a bunch of people that feel this way, or is this genuinely how many young people feel?

IABU to think that this can't really be true? (I am quite prepared to accept that IABU and that this really is what a majority of young people believe)

The link is here:

https://unherd.com/newsroom/majority-of-young-britons-think-israel-should-not-exist/

and this is the text of the article:

A majority of Britain’s young people do not believe Israel should exist, a new UnHerd poll has revealed.

A preliminary finding of an exclusive survey of 1,012 voters about foreign policy, conducted by Focaldata and due to be released tomorrow on UnHerd, found that a striking 54% of 18-24-year-olds agreed with the statement that “the state of Israel should not exist.” Just 21% disagreed.

This finding dovetails with other UnHerd polling on the same issue. In a separate question, young respondents were asked who was more to blame for the war in Gaza. Half blamed the Israeli government, while a quarter answered Hamas. Only 19% responded “all equally”.

The war’s high degree of exposure online and on social media appears to have fuelled interest among Britain’s young. An AI-generated “all eyes on Rafah” graphic was shared more than 44 million times on Instagram recently, with pro-Palestine content also proliferating on TikTok. Critics have argued that the Chinese social media platform has deliberately promoted anti-Israel content, which TikTok has denied, citing the existing attitudes of its young user base.

These attitudes are reflected in further UnHerd polling, which asked young Britons about their level of interest in wars around the world. It found that Britons aged 18-24 are far more interested in the war in Gaza than they are in the Russia-Ukraine conflict or in US-China tensions. Among this group, 38% were very interested in Gaza and 28% were somewhat interested, compared with 19% and 44% who were very or somewhat interested in the war in Ukraine, respectively.

As the Israeli war enters its eighth month, public opinion has slowly shifted in Palestine’s favour. Historic polling shows that popular support for Israel was at its highest shortly after the 7 October attacks at 21%, but this figure has since fallen. Although young people were most sceptical of Israel before the attack, the overall level of support for the Jewish state over the same time frame has plummeted to 16%, according to YouGov figures.

As of this week, a new ceasefire proposal is on the table, and the US is pushing Israel to accept it. The deal would involve the exchange of prisoners for hostages and would pave the way for negotiations. A ceasefire has strong majority support in the UK.

Pogroms were NOT the major cause of Jewish migration from Arab countries. This is another Israeli founding myth. Read Avi Schlaim and even Wikipedia. Despite the concerted efforts of Zionists to get Arab Jews expelled from North African countries and Yemen- they weren't. Many didn't leave until 1950s/1960s and even 1970s.

I for one do not support the thinking that Israel should not exist. It is there now nothing we can do about it but what we need to see is a safe space for both Israelis and Palestinians.

This. I have some extended family living out there but also had a grandfather who served there in the 40s and was very openly unimpressed about the total displacement of the Palestinians who lost their homes.

I believe there was also some suggestion that the Transjordan king was playing both sides in an attempt to gain more territory for the kingdom. History is bloody messy.

Young people see things very black and white, and are easily guided into an opinion. As there has been a lot of marches every week in London, they get most of their information from visuals. Israel haven’t been doing many marches. My son agrees with the Palestinian side of things, but focuses on the marches and the banners, without looking at what precipitated these bombings. I disagree with him, I’m very much on the side of Israel, and sometimes we will have discussions about the situation, but are respectful of each other’s opinions.

Another one trying to draw a false equivalence between the Troubles and the war in Gaza! 🤦‍♂️

No, the UK never needed to bomb Northern Ireland because PIRA never, ever had the weapons capabilities of Hamas. Indeed, PIRAs murder count over 38 years is easily dwarfed by Hamas' atrocities on 7th October 2023!

Now, that's not to downplay how awful PIRA was, but it's stating a fact that PIRA was never the kind of threat to the UK that Hamas is to Israel.

I mean, the UK never once needed an Iron Dome to deal with PIRAs rockets since they never had that kind of weapon.

Besides vastly different weapons capabilities, Northern Ireland was AND remains an integral part of the UK with British citizens who wanted to stay in the UK.

Gaza, on the other hand, is NOT an integral part of Israel and there are no Jewish people living in Gaza other than still living hostages taken there by Hamas and Gazan civilians.

Here's a more accurate map of the region that also shows Israel have a history of land for peace deals. You can see the concession of land that led to a normalisation of relations with Egypt.

The 1947 Arab leaders weren't interested in this as the later Three Noes Of Khartoum proved, the PLO wasn't interested in this until the 1990s when they recognised Israel's right to exist and that led to the rise to power of Hamas over time.

And Hamas isn't interested in land for peace. They want ALL the region of Palestine. Some point to their 2017 "charter" and claim Hamas want the 1967 borders. That belief is fundamentally incorrect as Hamas leaders made it clear the 2017 document did NOT contradict their 1988 charter.

For Hamas, this doesn't end unless/until the State of Israel is destroyed. And Hamas has massive support amongst Palestinians in Gaza & West Bank.

It's of concern that many, many Westerners appear to be unable to understand what war looks like, what is permitted in the fight against Hamas, what security looks like and so on.

Recognition of Israel AND the degradation of Hamas as a military terrorist force are absolutely integral parts of the Middle East peace process.

Security and counter-terrorism efforts absolutely has a role to facilitate that. It is this that leads to dialogue between opposing sides.

Not the other way round.

Well then maybe Israel should now have a permanent ceasefire, but they won't will they. We have all seen this play out in real time on our phones and laptops and there is no denying the images we have seen. So can you blame the young feeling the way they do, I certainly don't. They are angry and they want change and I truly hope that is what we will see. That Israel, U.S, UK, Germany and France and some other Europeans keep out of other countries. We are sick of this colonial mindset, taking what doesn't belong to them. Starting wars to control non western countries. Trying to teach the world that white = good and black/ brown = bad. These kids don't want to live life like that anymore and I applaud them, change is desperately needed.

The maps shown below throw a hand grenade on the entire edifice of international human rights and the Geneva Convention. Basically we conquered land in 1948 and in subsequent wars. We gave some of it back for peace but maintained the exclusion and marginalisation of millions of people who want to go back to their homes. So Russia should keep the Donbas and continue with its effort to reconquer Ukraine as there is literally nothing to prevent us returning to a time of conquest and expulsion as the norm based on who has the biggest guns. Fabulous.

“Why did you lead him on it’s what you were wearing!!” - You
Israel had no right to respond in that manner and blaming Hamas for Israel’s actions is shocking behaviour

So let me understand your analogy @crispychickenwings … Hamas is the woman wearing the short dress and Israel is the rapist?

I can’t believe I’ve just read that. Now that I find utterly and completely shocking given the actual rape and murder of young innocent women in the Oct 7th attack. Actually shot dead in the head while being gang raped.

Here is the UN agreeing there was evidence of Hamas using sexual violence in its attack.

To be clear, I am not condoning violence against innocent civilians. I am asking why Hamas hides behind its fellow citizens and why Hamas continues to bomb Isreal and why Hamas has not and did not release Israeli citizens it kidnapped.

I was wondering when you'd come up with that loophole.

And yet people are very aware which the Jewish state is when they want to accuse it of antisemitic conspiracy theories like controlling the media or other countries' governments.

They're also very aware when they choose to compare it to the Nazis.

Nothing has convinced me more that 'don't compare the Israeli government to the Nazis' belongs on that definition of antisemitism than how often people on MN have rushed to make that comparison. It started off with calling the situation in Gaza a Holocaust straight after October 7th. They kept doing it, so frequently, that it couldn't be an accident or coincidence. And so it has continued.

Antisemites love comparing Jews to Nazis, because it is specifically hurtful to Jews. Bear that in mind when you defend it.

well parts of (1 min54 seconds to 3 mins 56 seconds) says a lot about young people's understanding

or perhaps this

or this

or

or maybe they should see this

to understand why Israel will do anything to protect its people.

He did know it happened at the time, he didn't connect it to the 'Zionist' and 'genocide' stuff he was seeing on social media much later. His social media certainly wasn't making the connection for him either.

So you think people who want Israel to be destroyed should be applauded, but you have the gall to accuse other unspecified posters of wanting the death of innocents.

I do think Israel should exist. Ideally. Fully on board with Jewish people having a nation of their own. That said didn't the UK just declare a big chunk of Palestine Israel after the second world war? Then the U.S.A. recognised it as a state? I don't think that kind of white , we know best, patronising colonialism cuts it with the youth of today. I'm not sure creating a jewish state leading to the Arab/ Israel war displacing millions of Arabs was one of the best well we're giving up all the pink bits so you might as well have this one decisions that were made. I mean the whole redrawing of the global map was pretty dire. The partitioning of India into India and Pakistan led to shocking acts of brutality and violence and that was a year earlier perhaps someone should of learnt that these things needed better management?

I wonder how many lives have been lost due to civil servants of yore drawing borders without thought to consequences. Or with thought to the consequences, possibly a bit of a long term fuck you to the Americans for making the UK pay for WW2. Being Israel's strongest ally is a poisoned chalice.

Feel free to ignore my ramblings but the point I was getting to is that with problematic birth of Israel I think it'd be entirely possible to produce a set of questions that would say that Israel shouldn't exist, or should be somewhere else. Always take statistics with a pinch of salt unless you know who is asking the questions and for what purpose.

@noblegiraffe No loophole, just an accurate point and one which is made every time Israel gets accused of being an apartheid state or having apartheid like policies.

So which is it? Is It a Jewish state or is it a multicultural one? If its a multicultural state you clearly can make the comparisons between the nazis and some of the actions of the Israeli government, if its a Jewish state, then you can clearly build the accusation of apartheid.

Whatever the answer comparisons can still be made because it isn't criticism of Jews as a whole but the actions of a government. Its the biggest "get out" clause ever.

I do love how Youtube videos and a badly worded and tiny survey with no numbers have led to people's defence of war crimes though.

@noblegiraffe

"They're also very aware when they choose to compare it to the Nazis." Its almost like ghettoising a certain ethnic grouping, then building walls around the ghetto, then controlling how they leave, what goes in and out etc has some historical precedent isn't it? "

I actually think you are blind to the comparisons, and you are now an apologist for war crimes.

Like I said, @Aladdinzane , people know exactly which the Jewish state is when it comes to making antisemitism conspiracy theories about it.

I have no idea why you're wittering on about it not being a Jewish state just so you can compare it to the Nazis.

On top of wanting to redefine antisemitism, this is all quite odd.

what the actual fuck are you on about?

It is isn't, but you have to admit the similarities are there.

You also can't justify the existence of a state based on the oppression of the people and then ignore the fact that the state is oppressing and abusing the rights of other groups of people.

@noblegiraffe

So you don't think the Israeli government has forced people to move to Gaza, then built a wall round it, then controlled the access to and from it?

It doesn't prevent Palestinians in the West Bank from using certain resources?

Why does this bother you so much? Jewish people finding the comparison problematic? It's very easy to avoid. Why won't you? There are lots of pro Palestinian supporters on here who manage to not make the comparison.

I'm not sure someone who accuses someone of defending war crimes simply for explaining the IHRA definition of antisemitism is capable of logical thought.

No, it doesn't. 🤦‍♂️

Perhaps you should scroll a few pages back to see my point about the conflict being a security issue as well as Israel being under threat on SEVEN fronts with it all led by Iran, a Hostile State known for having links to terrorist groups internationally including PIRA, ETA & FARC.

Instead of land for peace, in the future there will be water for peace initiatives as part of the peace process.

And that's entirely legitimate since both deals are based on the European example of coal and steel for peace.

Indeed, at the start of each war Israel has been the one who was attacked. Lesson - don't attack a State you can't beat!

States have a right to defend themselves and their people.

Terrorist groups do NOT have the right to do whatever they want including using civilians as shields to try prevent a Sovereign Power's military operations. That's illegal under IHL and States CAN attack if Terrorist groups try this.

@noblegiraffe I can't believe how much shit you're getting because you admitted your son didn't connect the dots. Why would he have? It doesn't affect him in any way, shape or form. I was a teenager (just!) when September 11th happened. I 100% didn't understand the significance or the scale of what had happened. I just didn't. I didn't even know what the twin towers were. It only started meaning something to me the following day when my class mate said they still hadn't heard from her uncle and were very concerned, but even then I was sympathetic to her without understanding what had actually happened. I was 13, I didn't exactly spend much time watching the news.

Anyway, all that just to say keep ignoring those being rude to you about it and well done for realising he had gaps that needed filling in and then doing something about it.

No, it was the United Nations as a COLLECTIVE who decided to partition the region of Palestine in 1947.

The Arabs rejected that deal due to wanting the whole region for themselves. Palestinian Authority President Abbas admitted as late as 2011 that the 1947/48 Arab leaders were wrong to oppose the UN Partition Plan.

Following that, Arab States Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, Iraq and Jordan invaded Israel upon their declaration of independence.

That's FIVE against ONE and Israel’s army was also much smaller!

The following excerpts have been taken from the United Nations website:

www.un.org/unispal/history/

"Palestine was among former Ottoman territories placed under UK administration by the League of Nations in 1922. "

You can see in this link which countries were members of the League Of Nations in 1922 when Palestine was placed under UK administration.

www.britannica.com/topic/League-of-Nations/Members-of-the-League-of-Nations

"UK considered various formulas to bring independence to a land ravaged by violence. In 1947, the UK turned the Palestine problem over to the UN."

Under British administration, Palestine was NOT partitioned, but you will often hear people talking as though it was!

So, we move on to the actual partition itself:

"After looking at alternatives, the UN proposed terminating the Mandate and partitioning Palestine into two independent States, one Palestinian Arab and the other Jewish, with Jerusalem internationalized (Resolution 181 (II) of 1947)."

As we can see, the partition of Palestine was not created by the British Government alone.

The collective members of the United Nations made that decision.

"One of the two envisaged States proclaimed its independence as Israel and in the 1948 war involving neighbouring Arab States expanded to 77 percent of the territory of mandate Palestine, including the larger part of Jerusalem. "

The Office Of The Historian in the United States says the following:

"The Arab-Israeli War of 1948 broke out when five Arab nations invaded territory in the former Palestinian mandate immediately following the announcement of the independence of the state of Israel on May 14, 1948."

history.state.gov/milestones/1945-1952/arab-israeli-war

Whether you believe it was Israel or the five Arab nations who started the conflict, it is clear that the United Kingdom is not to blame for the partition as it didn't enact that plan.

Partition was a United Nations collective plan.

Personally, I would argue it was the FIVE Arab States who kickstarted the Arab-Israeli aka Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

And in the UK the vast majority of young people are NOT taught about the Middle East conflict. Nor are they well informed.

Fewer than 2% study it in History GCSEs. Only 27 schools in England teach it and 44 in the UK in total.

Nelson Mandela was a terrorist until he wasn't as were Aboriginal people and indigenous native Americans until they weren't which is invariably the point at which colonisation has succeeded. The US is a terrorist state for what it did in Iraq, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Libya not to mention the far east.
As for Israel being attacked...wow breathtaking revisionism. You think Israel is a peaceable nation? It created a multi million person refugee issue, it refuses a right of return to maintain its racial/religious dominance, it brutalises millions of people in the occupied territories. But it's best that you stick to official definitions of terrorism then you can always blames the stateless, the occupied, the victims for all the violence. It's an old playbook.