…In thinking that parents would welcome cheaper, less flashy private schools

[Newbutoldfather]

This is (obviously) occurred to me over VAT, but also in thinking that the cost of private schools has gone up way way beyond inflation.

The school I went to (ok, left 40 years ago) is now 12x what it cost when I went. (General inflation is 3.3x over same period for reference.

So, where has the money gone, given that they can’t make a profit? Not class sizes, which are actually, on average bigger, certainly pre sixth form. Not teachers’ salaries, which have failed to keep up with inflation. I think a lot is around the overall offering and a bloated, overpaid SLT structure. When I say the overall offering, I mean flashy facilities, wrap-around care, a myriad of available sports, a loss making 6th form offering subjects with only a few takers etc etc.

AIBU in thinking there would be massive demand for a ‘basic’ private school, which would maybe cost 1.5-2x a state school (minimum 3x where I live), have excellent academics and good pastoral care, but ‘ordinary’ facilities, a normal 6th form offering and good but limited sports. Or AIBU and most private school parents want expensive facilities and a huge choice of A levels, wrap around care and co-curricular and have no issues with how much it costs?

Incidentally I know where the fees have gone in our school.

The terrapins and temporary classrooms in the grounds of the old house have been replaced by a maths & science block. And a humanities block.

The drama and music rooms will be replaced next. Then they'll try to work out how to put a roof over the outdoor pool.

Frills were never the attraction for us.

I went to private day school back in 1980s. I'm amazed how much they spend on ramping up the facilities now. And yet suggesting we contribute to bursaries. If they didn't spend so much on the facilities then they would be able to fund more bursaries. I can only think there is some kind of arms race going on between schools, prestige and extras now outweighing the academic teaching, which was never dependent on sparkly state of the art theatre spaces or laboratories. WE didn't need those things to excel academically in science or put on amazing plays (ok not me but most pupils), why does this generation?

However I do remember reading a report on independent schools saying that the staff bill was the most expensive bit of the budget so maybe facilities are just a cheaper way to feather the nest than TEACHERS.

My children all went to state school btw.

I agree except for wrap around care.

I essentially want a school with parents of a similar mindset and without the disruptive/bad children.

The facilities are a nice bonus, but not the most essential.

Perhaps parents who want their children to go to a school with other parents who prioritize education.. even a parent spending a few k on it does show that he or she values it as you can also pay nothing..

I guess at secondary level you could get that kind of education by sending your kids to grammar (given you often need tutoring to pass the exams) but not all areas have grammar schools. In london the good state schools have tiny catchment or are faith schools with the exception of a few super selective grammar schools.

I have to admit I'm always slightly surprised that there isn't a school chain out there offering a basic state education but selecting pupils on behaviour and aptitude for gcses.

I guess the reason is most people who could afford to pay 7-8k, are able to live near the 'better' states or are able to afford the even better offer of smaller classes, breadth and increased pastoral.

I do wonder if families faced with bigger bills will start to query how important it is to have 50 clubs, over 20 and will find that offering 25 GCSEs instead of 30 is just fine.

@DragonGypsyDoris

In Denmark the state pay up to 75% and parents the rest.

Danish private schools are around £300 a month from age 6 to 15.
International schools not taught in Danish are often much more expensive and more or less only attended by pupils sponsored by parents' work.

Private schools aren't luxurious or in any way opulent in Denmark. It can be difficult to distinguish between public and private schools if you don't know.

Thank you for the information - very interesting. So the comparison with French 'private' schools is invalid.

My dc went to a private primary in a northern town. Only private school in town. Its fees are £8500 a year now. A year not a term.
It was more old fashioned. So using desks and chairs state would have thrown out years ago. I’d also suspect they saved money as curriculum was focused on basics and not jumping on latest fads so eg some library books would be classics the school had owned for years.
Small classes max 15 children.
They had a specialist language teacher, music teacher, sports teacher and dance teacher who came in. Most of these teachers were of the retired nice little job variety.
Lots of public speaking.
They didn’t do the dress up days.
Lots of emphasis on English & Maths.
They prepped for 11+ as part of school day.
Parents and Grandparents volunteered eg thanks to X’s grandma for making us an allotment. Donations of books or games were welcomed.
The whole thing felt more like a school in 80s. The school plays they had a set of leotards and just made different paper headbands no can you buy a specific costume.
It was a slightly longer school day and very working parent friendly. Two weeks extra holiday over state schools and no fines for absence.
Some children did have some additional needs or physical disability with parents worried how they would cope in state. Good behaviour was expected.
Manners and behaviour were excellent. Caring family feel.
Set mine up very well. She went into state grammar at 11.

So you mean pay for selective state schools? What you are describing sounds like grammar schools

For everyone on this thread who said they wouldn't mind paying more income tac to fund x, do they know they can do a random bank transfer to HMRC??

I already have an effective tax rate of c. 44% - I absolutely have no desire to pay even a penny more towards any public service of any kind,

Already pay MORE than my fair share, while also having to pay a nanny + her tax, pension and employer tax just to be able to do my job, given the complete lack of flexibility in the school system, even taking into account after school club until 6. If you have a commute who can leave work at 5 on the dot?! What if the train is delayed?

All ridiculous. Don't know how Labour have managed to kid people into thinking the few people who send their kids to private school are somehow stealing from the rest of us.

Almost no country in the world taxes education but economic studies show how counterproductive it is to do so!

I think you're point about similar parental mindset is a good one. If there is a culture of achievement it does beget more achievement. Not saying you can't achieve in low pressure schools but one-up-man-ship was a great motivator for me when I took my GSCE's/A-levels.

I guess that's an argument for a "no frills" option to exist though? If a parent knew that was the ethos of the school they might not need the other stuff?

Perhaps schools like that used to be more common but that's what people wanted so they were oversubscribed and that pushed the price up?

Pure speculation on my part.

Durham has something along those lines, Independent Durham Grammar school. I'm keeping it on my radar until I see how they do on first GCSES.

I think that's the closest ideology - they're selective like some privates and have wealthy parents who don't want to pay extra for extra curricular or boarding. Results oriented. If grammar parents paid the 7/8k the state sector could really fly.

Problem is, you'd lose a hell of a lot bright and talented kids whose parents can barely afford beans on toast, while you'd choke the grammars with troublemakers whose parents' idea of sorting their behaviour is to throw first money at it and then their weight around.

It has been shown people at grammars are not poor - a large chunk come from private preps and their FSM is on average 6% (compared to average 28%)
You could let the FSM have full bursaries, as privates do.

This is normal in Spain, sort of semi funded public schools. Parents pay about 200€ a month plus extra for canteen, bus, extracurriculars etc and the govt funds the rest. They have a little more autonomy than public schools, similar I think to academies in the uk.

Have you seen the house prices in grammar catchment areas? Of course the numbers are skewed. Will be even more so if you tack 6 grand on too. Meanwhile, those for whom grammars were intended for (poor but bright) would miss out even more with this!

You'd just keep the same lot - I live in a grammar area and it's only the rich get in anyway, they use it instead of paying for private. They can easily afford 7k pa for a selective school where they can boast about their DC's ability - jam packed with champagne socialists who don't want to admit it's their SES that ensured their kids a place. This would mean they get a bargain and can also feel altruistic about paying back into the community for the state sector. At the moment they like the ideology of not being the sort to pay for private, but if you put a price tag on ensuring they could continue keeping their kids away from the rag tag comp lot they'd take it.

@lanthanum or, people might trade down from expensive private to less expensive private?

I’d be interested in a low cost private school for about £5-6k per year, with smaller class sizes and selective entry for non-disruptive children with engaged parents, but not including all of the expensive extras like sport.

Don’t think such a thing exists though? The private schools near me charge £5-6k per TERM never mind per year.

I’ll tell you what would happen if those sort of schools were allowed though. Most of the middle class parents who earn an average salary could stretch to that and would send their kids there, leaving state schools as “sink schools” for children who are disruptive or have unemployed or low earning parents.

Unlikely - the less expensive ones are very similar to grammar schools - extra circs not really a feature, lots of sports scholarships to boost numbers but teaching pretty average.

If people are willing to keep paying through VAT they'll be the ones with the bells and whistles who like or need them. For me dd has a particular sport that most schools do not cater for, she has a favourite subject that local schools do not cater for (no teachers) and loves boarding. You couldn't really trim those options down for someone like me and I don't consider myself wealthy at all - will likely be remortgaging as the only other option is the grammar with her state primary bullies and me not being able to work any more. It would be a loss all round.

So you basically want a school the professional middle classes can access but that keeps the real riff raff out? Nice.

Imagine if the grammar school had a second stream for those who didn't pass 11+

I think it would be a winner. They can continue to be selective about who they let in.

People are paying for
Nicer facilities
Get away from kids who misbehave so learning will be accelerated
Get their children to have a certain class of friends

I think that if the buildings and facilities were poor they would not be happy

It’s never anything to do with “riff raff”

it’s everything to do with class sizes and getting shit done

the real problem in schools is if you are in one with a bully targeting you. Not “riff raff”. State or private.