Contempt for Grammar Schools

[PencilMom]

Yesterday’s thread regarding the exclusion of private schooled children from state grammar schools has really highlighted that many people dislike grammar schools (and even more so private schools and the parents who can afford it).

AIBU for completely not understanding where the contempt stems from? There is dislike of the parents who explore this as an option for their children (many are characterised as elitist), the parents who can afford tutoring (which in many cases focuses on becoming accustomed to the test format), the children who go to grammars, I have even seen teachers accused of choosing the easy route.
There is not nearly as much dislike of sporting schools, creative arts or technical schools. If there is a school which caters to a child’s particular strengths or interests, why is that considered bad. Where possible all counties/cities should have a varied range of focused schools.

Please explain why you are opposed to or support grammar schools?
(I totally understand that the 11+ / selective tests has a negative undertone for those who “fail” — but is that not on the parents/primary schools to positively frame the experience regardless of their child’s score).

Or both

@tiredbutcantsleep

But, here in the UK, we hate success, especially academic success

that’s pretty much the crux of it.
there is a drive to get the Ds Es to Cs, but no drive to get the Bs to A and A*. And absolute contempt for parents who provide resources (time or money) to support a child who’s brilliant.

Every child should be able to reach their potential, be that in astrophysics or ballet. The ballerina certainly won’t if they are relying on the state.

the uk loves a race to the bottom and we have a burgeoning social care bill to show for it.

Grammar schools are needed but need expanding and standardising. We can't have multiple systems, either we have a super selective system - and only have say 6 schools (3 of each sex) spread round each county, or we fully embrace a tiered system like Germany. A lot of the arguments against Grammars in this thread are anti-tiered systems so why not have a super selective option in each county?

I have friends whose DC attend grammar schools. They only got in by 2-3 years of extensive tutoring to the tune of thousands of £££. It's for the rich and wealthy only.

Invested parents , and esp those with money, will always find a way to make the system work for them. Friend of mine lives in an area with not great state secondaries. No grammar schools and can’t stretch to private. But 30 minutes down the road is an excellent state boarding school, but it’s out of catchment as a day pupil. So her child is going to flexi board 1 night a week….and that gets them into the school.

Stats. They show the privilege and why they ruin so many schools in any area they are in.
Get rid of them and you'd level it for all and actually bring up the poor performers.

So you're ignoring all the amazing kids who thrive at state school?

@Allfur "that’s pretty much the crux of it.
there is a drive to get the Ds Es to Cs, but no drive to get the Bs to A and A*. "

That really isn't true. What do you think happens in top sets?

As others have said, grammar schools nowadays do the opposite of what they were set up to do. They create deeper social divides. I understand that parents only want what's best for their children and getting a good education is so important. But personally I'm not morally comfortable with a system that is largely down to those who can afford to have their children tutored in order to pass the test.

I also get a bit fed up with the narrative around how comprehensives are the just the worst and some parents would never consider sending their child to such a place.

Both my DC are thriving academically. The dedication of their teachers and the enthusiasm they have for their subjects has so impressed me. And this isn't an outstanding rated school. Eldest DD got almost straight 9s. Everyone kept asking her if she would now go to the grammar for 6th form. No way would she. She felt that would be deeply disloyal! Plus she's in a Further Maths class with 2 other students. There are 60 (2 classes of 30) at the grammar school doing FM. DD is getting amazing teaching where she is.

I don't hate grammar schools (or grammar school parents!) but they do contribute to making society less equal, not more.

@LighthouseCat Exactly.

I've experienced this, one dc at one.
Strange people who live in large houses but put down the rich posh towns they live in and their big houses 🙄🤔.

Also moan about the grammar.

@Allfur im not sure where you get that idea from my post.

of course there are many brilliant children at state schools, my post didn’t say anything to suggest otherwise.

I live in a grammar area. Before having kids, I never really gave it a thought. We don't really have grammar or sink schools to choose from, they are mostly ok or better than ok. My issues now are

1. The property prices surrounding the grammar schools are much higher. People with greater wealth buy their way into the catchments and move again when their youngest has starter secondary.
2. it is not a level playing field, as people with money to do so, tutor their children in year 5 and even 4 to get the best chance. That doesn't mean these are the children with the highest potential or intelligence. There is clear evidence that grammar schools have fewer children on free school meals, pupil premium etc. Looking at the cars dropping kids off, they are much more likely to be tesla, Mercedes, audio etc. No battered old hatchbacks.
3. There are fewer schools left over for all of the other children that do not go to grammar schools. This means kids are less likely to find suitable provision as there is less variety.

I know two people who would have failed the 11 plus and both of them are now in their first year at Oxford. Some people are just late bloomers, and writing people off at 11 seems grossly unfair. If there was a possibility of entering a grammar school for KS4 then I can see some advantage, but 11 is far too early.

My greatest aspiration for my child is to be happy. If you’ve got a happy kid, that’s probably vastly more important than a test score. Personally, I wouldn’t want to limit children who are made happy by Grammar schools, anymore than I wish to limit those who are suited to other settings. I wasn’t faintly academic and studied art, so I do get where you’re coming from.

@Purpletractor "of course there are many brilliant children at state schools, my post didn’t say anything to suggest otherwise."

But according to you, they are not encouraged to do their best.

I have two children at grammar, we are certainly not wealthy (income less than £50K a year combined) and we didn’t tutor either of our kids, in fact the head teacher cautioned against it. If you can only pass by extensive tutoring and hot housing it’s unlikely you will thrive there or last the course. In my experience none of my children’s friends were tutored beforehand except one who is struggling.

State schools need to be better, yes? The answer is not to undermine what is currently successful, but find a way to create a symbiosis, that enhances opportunities across the social spectrum. You are describing the way you see specific local Grammar schools (not sure where you are referencing), the clique you mention is not one I recognise at all. We as a society need to bring the bottom up, not the top down.

Do grammar schools really do that good a job??? If the children are already academic and have parent support and more wealth, it’s a no brainer that they’ll do well.

@CurlewKate i think in many state schools (and in some grammar and private) that is the case. There is considerably more spent on children with an EHCP…..because they fit criteria which releases extra money. Just imagine what some children could Achieve ….academically, but also in sports or art….if they also had the same funding.
we removed our daughter from a primary school where she obviously sat on the ‘top’ table. One day she asked us ‘when x and y ask for help from the teacher they always get it. When I ask for help I am told to do more colouring’….because she had already achieved the task of the day and therefore could be left to get bored.

https://britannia-study.co.uk/boarding-schools/state-schools-league-table/

The top 10 are all, I think, selective schools. Interestingly mainly girls schools. Are we failing our boys?

@Purpletractor There is considerably more spent on children with an EHCP…..because they fit criteria which releases extra money."

It's not "considerably more". I agree that it more-and it needs to be.

@Onheretoomuch "Do grammar schools really do that good a job??? "

If you compare like with like, I think grammar school kids get half a grade higher than top set comprehensive children. So yes, they do a good job. But so do comprehensive schools.

@Overthemenopause

Are we failing our boys?

I don’t have a link to the evidence but the lowest achieving group of children in uk society is white boys from blue collar families.
so yes, we absolutely are failing boys.

My db didn’t pass for grammar but when we moved area dm put him in for the entrance exam for the local grammar, he was 14. He got in and did well.
I and my other 5 siblings all passed.
We were the poorest of the poor and dm struggled just to buy our uniforms but getting into a grammar school transformed our lives and gave us opportunities we would never have had.
This was the 70’s when a class system prevailed.

My dc went to the local comprehensive but it was in a very smart middle class area and this was reflected in the exam results.

As for tutoring your dc, if a parent feels they need it and they can afford it then it’s not anyone else’s business.
My dd had an abysmal maths teacher and was set to fail her gcse. I chatted to a friend who was a maths tutor at the local college. She saw dd weekly, refused any payment and absolutely got her through her gcse. I’m forever grateful.